Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Join Marie and Pete as they discuss toxic positivity and the importance of living with negative emotions.
Show notes
Men’s Shed
The modern Men’s Shed is an updated version of the shed in the backyard that has long been a part of Australian culture. Men’s Sheds are found in many cities and towns around Australia and continue to spring up internationally.
Most men have learned from our culture that they don’t talk about feelings and emotions many do not take an interest in their own health and well-being. Becoming a member of a Men’s Shed provides a safe and busy environment where men can find many of these things in an atmosphere of old-fashioned mateship. And, importantly, there is no pressure. Men can just come and have a yarn and a cuppa if that is all they’re looking for.
Dadirri – Deep listening
The Aboriginal people of Australia have long practiced deep listening or dadirri, an almost spiritual skill, based on respect. Deep listening is inner, quiet, still awareness and waiting.
“Australia needs to know that Dadirri can help you slow down, stop, and help you realise who you are, what you’re about, where you’re going, where you belong.” – Miriam Rose Ungunmerr-Baumann
Transcription
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
P: This podcast is about how to live the good life. Whether we’re talking about a new study or the latest news or eastern philosophy, our show is all about discovering what makes people happy.
M: So, if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes I think we’re kind of funny.
[Intro music fadeout]
P: Welcome back.
M: So?
P: Bright and bushy tailed.
M: So, what are we talking about today, Pete?
P: So, today is about living with negative emotions. Toxic positivity.
M: Not toxic positivity.
P: We’re talking about toxic positivity, but not enjoying toxic positivity. So, it’s the reverse.
M: We are being cynical of toxic positivity.
P: [Gasp] Cynics, yay! The cynic is back.
M: It’s even in the name.
P: Mmm.
M: Toxic.
P: Yes. Oddly enough, this came up in my lecture this week with my tutor.
M: Oh, nice.
P: Yes, and I felt very, very, very empowered by saying, you know the definition of toxic positivity is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
M & P: Laugh.
P: I thought I’d gotten the record when I pulled out the word thoraco-abdominal fascia.
M: Wrong podcast.
P: Laugh.
M: But what is toxic positivity then, Pete?
P: According to Andrée-Ann Labranche, who is a candidate of psychological doctorate at the University of Quebec in Montreal,
“Toxic positivity [words] are dismissive comments focused on happiness, and “all is well” that denies emotional validation.”
M: And I think this is really important because we speak so much about happiness, joy, subjective wellbeing, whatever you want to call it, and the power of that to really transform lives.
P: Mmm, oh yes. Empowering and getting in touch with it and doing all the work to encourage it and be aware of it.
M: And personally, it has changed me. It’s the flourish and thrive argument. We’ve spoken about that as well.
P: Mmm.
M: The difference between just having life happen to you and taking life by the balls –
P: Laugh!
M: – and running with it and loving life.
P: Yeah.
M: And with that kind of rhetoric, people looking in from the outside can often think, ‘Well, my life’s going… I’m going through divorce, retirement, redundancy, big life changes and things aren’t good.’
P: Mmm.
M: Grief.
P: Yes. ‘And I just can’t be happy right now.’
M: Yeah.
P: [Whispers] But that’s okay.
M: Well, we’re here to say that’s okay, but a lot of the slogans on the T-shirts and the really short, sharp, ‘nine ways to be happier’ articles that don’t go into the science or only present one-sided view of positivity can create this environment of toxic positivity.
P: Which is really negative for you and really creates trauma and depression and anxiety. And really debilitating emotions come about because of that.
M: Absolutely, and really something that a lot of men’s groups are finding –
P: Mmm, yes.
M: – over the last 10, 20 years, we’ve discussed this as well, is… Men’s Health, I know there’s a lot of articles now about mental health.
P: It’s so in the current mode of thought, because of the [high] rates of suicide for men.
M: Absolutely. So, I know that one in five people experience mental health issues in any one year. What we do know also is that when men attempt suicide when women attempt suicide, men are more successful.
P: Yeah.
M: So, what we’re saying here is that it is impossible to live in a world where everything is happy.
P: Those things are just annoying, aren’t they?
M: Laugh.
P: These really happy people, I’m just like, “Can I pinch you on the arm or something? Just give you something to deal with.” Laugh.
M: And things go wrong constantly. And it’s all well and good when things are going well and life is happy and you’ve got a lot to be grateful for.
P: Yep.
M: But that is not sustainable.
P: Mmm.
M: There is no way to avoid pain and trauma and grief and at the same time experience happiness. You could go crawl into a hole and do nothing, but you’ll experience no joy as well as no pain.
P: Mmm. This is what Labranche is talking about. She’s talking about owning your negative emotions and confronting them and giving them space.
M: Yes.
P: Actually going, it is permissible for you to feel low to feel down, and that’s really important because that emotional validation is so vital for us. If we don’t get these negative emotions, she says in the article, they keep coming back and they come back with more velocity and more intensity.
M: Absolutely. It’s like spending on a credit card, you keep making transactions and eventually you’ve got to pay the bill.
P: Yes, yes! Oh, I like that analogy.
M: Eventually, you know someone’s going to come knocking on your door and the time will come. You pay it, or you do the work, and you feel the pain and you do the processing, and you do the self-growth or it comes out in really unhealthy ways, like anger and violence.
P: Oh yes. Labranche talks about that being the externalised symptoms of delinquency, violence, defensiveness, disrupted miss and impulsive behaviours.
M: And a lot of that comes from perhaps being around a toxic positivity environment where people haven’t felt that they could be sad or angry or mad, or also where they don’t have the tools, the language.
P: Mmm.
M: Or society hasn’t allowed them, particular again with men, to feel that they can have a cry or that they can have a vent to a friend and a lot of the times they’re told to suck it up.
P: Yep.
M: We’ve really got that culture, that Aussie bloke culture here in Australia. But there are similar, similar pressures, societal pressures with a lot of Western men.
P: Mmm.
M: Now there are some other cultures around the world where men are encouraged to have tantrums and cry and throw plates and show their emotion and again there’s a difference between a negative emotions and negative behaviours.
P: Yes.
M: We’re not at all condoning violence, but to show that emotion and that is seen as a sign of strength.
P: Mmm, yeah
M: Our country is not like that.
P: I think it’s changing.
M: It is.
P: I do think the conversation is changing in Australia. We are an inheritor of the British stiff upper lip.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: I think that there’s a lot more conversations, a lot more awareness about it now, anyway. And there are things like the Men’s Shed, for example, which is encouraging that conversation and encouraging that safe space for emotional expression and for emotional intelligence to come forward.
M: Absolutely. Before the show, when we were doing our research, we were talking about what happens when people approach life with a toxic positivity mindset.
P: Mmm.
M: So, the reason you want positivity to balance out negativity is that we are wired and hardwired to look for the negative. If we finish a project, what do we do? We call them PIR’s, in the corporate world, you go and look at everything that went wrong so you can not do it again next time.
P: Laugh.
M: It’s continuous improvement.
P: Yeah.
M: You finish a sports game and the coach says, “All right, here’s what we didn’t get right this time. That’s what we’re going to work on in the gym next week.”
P: Mmm.
M: We mess something up and we berate ourselves and we think, ‘Why didn’t I do X, Y and Z,’ so that is natural evolutionary, biological hard wiring in us. The people who are better at looking out for the dangers around them lived, right?
P: We’re hard wired to see the negative.
M: And so also adding in the positive isn’t about over indexing on the positive and not seeing the negative. It’s about balancing out what we’re naturally doing with the negative.
P: Yeah, and giving space to both.
M: Yep.
P: That’s the, that’s the good part.
M: Balancing it, balancing it.
P: For sure.
M: And when it becomes toxic is when it becomes the only thing.
P: Mmm.
M: Just like only being negative, only being positive and not allowing yourself or others to have space to experience those negative feelings –
P: I did some work around this. Sorry, sorry about cutting you off there. I did some work around this with a therapist a few years back, and I found it very difficult to give voice to that negative… that, that sort of negative area. Sorry for the positive side of the negative.
M: Mmm hmm. The silver lining?
P: Yeah, it was It was really difficult. And I remember being in the corner of the room and actually physically I was like that little black spot, it needs a voice you need to give it a voice. And I was like, “I can’t allow it to come out.” So, it took a lot of work and a lot of imagery and physical-isation to actually even acknowledge that.
M: Yeah.
P: And I think that, that’s something that maybe a lot of people do struggle with is going, “No, there is something, there is something in the negative that you’re allowed to actually express.”
M: Yep.
P: And get it out there and talk to a friend to talk to a trusted one. Talk to a loved one about it.
M: Or find a psychologist.
P: Yes.
M: Or psychiatrist you can talk to.
P: Yeah.
M: All right. So, the reason that toxic positivity, you know, it’s at the wrong end of the spectrum there. You want to be in the middle with a good mix of positive and negative emotions and experiences. You want to be able to look at the negative emotions and find the positive out of them and look at the positive and in a way to better yourself in the situation.
P: Mmm.
M: Also, be able to pull back and have a look at things that didn’t go right or could have been done better so that we can learn.
P: To help you move forward.
M: Yep. And that’s, that’s not going to change. Let’s be honest.
P: Laugh.
M: But where toxic positivity can be really harmful is when someone comes to you and wants to express negativity, something that’s gone wrong, whether it’s grief or shame, or any raft of negative emotions, and we emotionally invalidate what they’re saying.
P: Yeah, yeah. That’s the, “Oh, can’t you just be happy?”
M: Yes.
P: “Can’t you look at the positive? Can’t you see what you’ve got that’s brilliant?
M: Mmm hmm. “That’s really sad, but I’m sure it won’t be that bad.”
P: Yeah, that’s what we don’t want to do.
M: “What do you want for dinner?”
P: Laugh. “Let’s have a cup of tea.”
M & P: Laugh.
M: Yep.
P: That’s definitely what we don’t want to happen. So, if you’re dealing with someone who has that need or desire to express some negativity, the first thing you need to do is to acknowledge it.
M: Validate their emotions. You don’t also have to understand their emotions. So, if it’s real for them, it’s real.
P: Exactly.
M: And so, we teach a lot of this in my company. Actually, if someone is going through a tough time, even if it wouldn’t even rate on your scale of tough to not tough, even if it’s not even on there. If they’re not coping, if they’re having a hard time, then they’re going through something that requires validation.
P: Yes.
M: And requires, you know, the person on the other end to stop and listen.
P: Yeah.
M: So, there’s some great examples from a study by American psychologists, and they looked at two examples. So, one in the aftermath of a breakup. A young man feels anger, sadness and confusion. His friend listens to him and validates him. The man then normalises his conflicting feelings and understands the feelings will not last forever.
P: Hmm.
M: So, amongst that he would also not feel alone as well, which is really important.
P: Mmm.
M: In contrast, we look at another man who is going through the same type of breakup and doesn’t understand his feelings, feels ashamed and fears losing control of his emotions. His friends invalidate him and won’t listen to him. The man then tries to suppress his emotions, which creates anxiety and can even lead to depression.
P: Yeah, definitely.
M: And as hard as it is to rock up to your mates at the pub after a few beers and ball your eyes out and be like, “I just don’t know why she left me. She was the love of my life, and I feel bad, or I messed up or it was all her fault.”
P: Laugh.
M: Whatever it is, being able to have some friends listen and go, “that sucks, mate. Yeah, I’m on your side. She was horrid, I never liked her in the first place.”
P: Laugh.
M: “Let me buy you another drink.”
P & M: Laugh.
P: Having friends who will do that for you and let you vent and process.
P: Yeah.
M: Process as well, is so important to healing.
P: Yeah.
M: The other thing we want to talk about was avoidance reaction.
P: Well, that’s the whole thing of doing everything possible to avoid negative emotions. Like the minute you feel something you go “La la la la, I’m going to go with the here and jump up and down and pretend to be a unicorn, and everything will be fine!”
M: [High pitched, shrill voice] Fine! It’s the word fine, isn’t it? I’m fine!
P: Laugh, yes. We know what that stands for? Did we maybe want to look that up because I don’t know if we’re allowed to say that on air, laugh… F’d up, Insecure, Neurotic, and Emotional.
M: Mmm hmm. Fine. Okay, fine. Just fine.
P: Laugh! And this is this is this is where those negative emotions, if we don’t address them and don’t give them the space they do return more often and with greater intensity. And the Labranche talks about that in the article that we read for this week, it really is important to give those negative emotions space. It’s like the universe just keeps going, “Oh, you didn’t learn the lesson? Here it is again.”
M: Laugh.
P: “And here it is again.” “And here it is AGAIN!” Laugh.
M: So, I’ve been reading this book called Reasons to Stay Alive, and it is that macabre I will say.
P: Mmm.
M: It is also based on the science behind the idea of talking about suicide, depression and anxiety and how if done right and sensitively, it can actually help people to not commit suicide. So, opening up these conversations there’s another great Netflix series called 13 Reasons Why.
P: Ahh.
M: Where the main protagonist kills herself and leaves behind a range of tapes for the people in her life to listen to.
P: Wow.
M: Yep, and when done sensitively and with the appropriate disclaimers and next steps of people who may be struggling, it’s really important to broach these conversations in appropriate ways. So, the books by Matt Haig, his a famous author, and he’s written a bunch of other stuff. But he has struggled through his life since his twenties with anxiety and depression, and I just love this quote of his. So, he says, “You need to feel life’s terror to feel it’s wonder.”
P: Oh. Mmm. It’s like experiencing both sides of the seesaw.
M: Absolutely. So, he talks about depression and anxiety through his book and what that means to him acknowledging fully that that means something completely different to other people, everyone experiences that differently. But he also talks about how you don’t appreciate the sun rise until you’ve thought about ending it all.
P: Mmm.
M: You don’t appreciate toast and coffee on the porch with your wife until you’ve been so low that you thought you couldn’t go on. So, there is something about that negative emotion that can have a silver lining.
P: Yep.
M: It can, once you get through it, make the life on the other side that much more meaningful and precious. And again, definitely with me since the accident.
P: Mmm.
M: Just feel that there’s so much in this world, in this life, to explore and that brings joy and satisfaction and laughs and happiness and all of that, that we’ll never get through it all in a lifetime.
P: Yeah.
M: And so, every second spent pursuing it is a blessing.
P: I’m with you there.
M: Yeah. Alright, we’re starting to run out of time, so we might just skip into negativity bias.
P: Yes, it’s the vocabulary for negative experiences, so many words that we have for… We have more words in our vocabulary… It’s so much easier to describe negative experiences than it is to describe positive experiences, so it’s easier to go negative. It’s easy to look for something that confirms your negative belief.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: Sometimes they said, this is about reframing it’s about “Okay, well, maybe I need to do that for my positive experiences as well”, learning to recognise the positive experience, but then dive a little bit deeper into it and go, “Okay, well, was I happy or was I elated? Was I euphoric?” It’s giving that little bit more of a descriptive label, if you like, so that you actually spend some time dwelling on how –
M: Good?
P: – bloody fabulous it was! Laugh.
M: And again, negative bias is another scientific word which just pretty much says what we spoke about earlier this episode. We are geared to notice the negative and dwell on the negative.
P: Mmm, yep.
M: So, we have a bias towards negative. If you’re not proactively looking for that silver lining or being grateful, practising gratitude is a great way to be re-wiring the brain for the positive. Such a simple exercise to add the balance back in, then your natural evolutionary self, the… is it the limbic? Which part of your brain?
P: That’s the emotional brain, yep.
M: The ah… fight or flight old school. Amygdala. [pronounced uh-mig-dar-la]
P: Laugh! Amygdala. [pronounced uh-mig-duh-luh] Laugh!
M: We will forever disagree on this.
P: Laugh.
M: But if you’re not taking control of those centres of the brain or balancing them out and letting them run rampant through your head. Then you will most likely be in that negative area forever.
P: Yeah, yeah so true. So, filter your negativity bias, get some positivity bias in there every now and then as well.
M: Yep. All right, so we had to tips to finish up. So, tip number one. When people come to you and they’re going through bad times, it might feel like you’re helping them to help them see the positive. But really, what you need to do is take a breath, validate what they’re saying. Yes, I hear you. Yes, I understand that sounds tough, sad, etcetera. And also listen.
P: Mmm.
M: Rather than jumping straight into solving motion, which is where my head goes, just sit and listen and let them know it’s all right and you’re there.
P: There’s a thing you can reference called deep listening, and it actually dates back to traditional aboriginal culture. But yeah, that ability to listen in Western society particularly, we don’t listen well. We are not good with silence. Asian cultures are better at it.
M: It just feels so awkward, doesn’t it?
P: That’s the thing. It is awkward for us. So, it’s a little tip.
M: And then the next thing is for you. You and me, is to learn to recognise negative feelings and talk about them, obviously in an appropriate way. I see a lot of people who are struggling with this part of their lives who post rants on Facebook, and that’s a place that’s going to make you more lonely.
P: Yep.
M: People don’t respond or know what to do with a lot of those posts.
P: Yeah.
M: But reach out to someone. Reach out to someone and go have a coffee with them and let them know what’s going on your life and again just ask them just to listen, right.
P: Mmm.
M: There will be time for solving stuff later or working out a plan forward later. But to begin with, you need someone who can listen or pay a professional. And then eventually, though, you do want to stop just talking over and over and over and over about the negative thing and start taking steps to –
P: – Action something.
M: Yeah, to bring some of that positivity back in and to start balancing that out, but only when you’re ready.
P: Yeah, mmm.
M: Alright and on that note,
P: have a happy week.
M: And stay cynical.
P: Laugh!
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more, please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show, we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
[Exit music fadeout]
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