Happiness for Cynics podcast
In this week’s episode Marie and Pete discuss the Happiness Paradox and why so many of us struggle in the pursuit of happiness.
Transcript
Show notes: At ~ 10 minutes Pete references a 2010 study, Motivating Goal-Directed Behavior Through Introspective Self-Talk: The Role of the Interrogative Form of Simple Future Tense, conducted at the University of Illinois, the authors of this study are: Senay, Albarracin and Noguchi.
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
P: This podcast is about how to live the good life. Whether we’re talking about a new study or the latest news or eastern philosophy, our show is all about discovering what makes people happy.
M: So if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes we’re kind of funny.
[Intro music fadeout]
M: And we’re back.
P: Hi… Laugh.
M: Hey, I love that we start every episode by laughing at each other, pretty much.
P&M: Laughter.
P: Well we found out very early in the episodes really, because we did the first one and it was… so bad.
M: I know, we need to go back and rerecord the first one.
P: I knew we would…
M: Laugh.
P: And then you were like ‘we need to make each other laugh somehow.’
M: We need to be less robotic, eeuggh. Live and learn. So today we’re talking about:
P: The Happiness Paradox.
M: [Singing] Ta da.
P: [Singing] Ta da. Explain what that is Marie.
M: Okay, so.
P: Strap yourselves in people.
P & M: Laughter.
P: Get comfy.
M: So, research suggests-
P: Oh! Research, laugh.
M: – research suggests a surprising, paradoxical effect.
P: Ooh.
M: A happiness paradox.
P: Mmm.
M: And it is that the more people pursue positive emotions, the less likely they are to experience positive outcomes.
P: [Singing] So true.
M: So the more you chase happiness, the less likely you are to get it.
P: The further away you are.
M: Yes, so the happiness paradox is something that a lot of people in positive psychology would know about and that’s what we’re going to talk about today.
P: Ok.
M: So let’s dig into maybe what that is and how it presents a little bit more.
P: Yeah, sure.
M: So it is saying or thinking things like, I’ll be happier when.
P: Mmm.
M: I’ll be happier when I have a red sports car.
P: Laugh …Well.
Laughter
P: I was very happy when I got my red sports car.
P & M: Laughter.
M: Or I’ll be happier when I have a better place to live in when I can get a place of my own or have a newer a car or a promotion or a better job, or more money. Or insert something you want, normally a consumerist driven, capitalist society-
P: Laugh, wow, just wow.
M: -inspired thing, rather than state of being or anything like that.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: So insert that here and the problem is that what we’re really saying when we say ‘I’ll be happier when’ what we’re really saying is that I’m not going to be happy now, but when that happens, I will be happy.
P: Mmm.
M: And so, we’re delaying our opportunities for happiness in the moment and it doesn’t give us permission to be happy now. It’s always you want to do that and then you’ll be happy.
P: Yes.
M: And lo and behold, you get a promotion or a fancy house, and you might be happy for a short amount of time, because that’s cool, right?
P: Yep.
M: But often. Well always you won’t be happy forever. Because it’s just a thing, right? So and then you set another goal and you work towards that because surely you’ll be happy then?
P: Laugh.
M: Right?
P: [Pretend yelling voice] ‘But when I get there, I’m not happy!’
M: Pretty much. So you might have a small spike [in happiness] I’m not saying that getting a promotion won’t make you happy.
P: No, no, no.
M: If you wanted it.
P: It makes you feel glad, excited, positive.
M: Yeah, definitely. But it’s not a sustained happiness.
P: It’s not a key to a long term happiness.
M: Absolutely.
P: It’s a peak and a trough.
M: Yep, absolutely.
P: I love the graphic example of this is where you’ve got peaks and troughs and then you’ve got a hyperbolic curve. So the investment in exercises of long term happiness, so doing some daily meditation on doing is an act of kindness or gratitude and so forth that creates that hyperbolic curve, which is constant. So the peaks and the troughs can come within that, but that curvature of doing those long term happiness exercises helps to balance that out. So you don’t have the emotional swings, and you’ve got this underlying current that drives through at a more median level.
M: You have no idea how I’m representing that in my head right now.
P: Laugh. It’s a visual representation.
M: I think I just drew a picture of a cat.
P: [Laugh]
M: With spikey ears.
P: Ok. Laugh. I’ll try that again sometime. Moving on…
[Laughter]
M: But, I think I know where you’re going.
P: Yes.
M: Laugh.
P: So if you’re going up and down all the time, it’s hard work. If you’re constantly going up a mountain, down a mountain, up the mountain, down the mountain, it’s hard work.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: Now, if you’ve got a bridge that goes between those mountain peaks, the climb is more sustained and it creates a longer, more balance effect. A measurement of happiness or exertion.
M: Nah..
P: Still not there? Ok. Alright I give up, laugh!
M: No, I see what you’re saying.
P: Laugh.
M: I guess where I’m at is I believe that sustained long term happiness keeps you above neutral.
P: Yeah.
M: You know, above… If you have happiness is on a scale of 0 to 10. You’re going to have shit, things that happen in you’re life.
P: Oh, yeah.
M: And you’re going to have good things. And they’re your spikes.
P: Yes.
M: And some of them you can avoid through your own behaviour and some of them just happen, good and bad.
P: And you’ve got to deal with them.
M: Yep. But you want to be. You want your engine revving above neutral and that’s your long term sustained.
P: I should have done the engine rev example.
M: Yes!
P: Laugh.
M: You want, you want your… So you don’t want to be sitting at zero and having peaks up to 10 and troughs down to zero, every now and then, you want to be sitting at two or three, which is a really good quality high level of… Sorry I said up to 10 didn’t I?
P: Yes.
M: So I’ve stuffed that up already.
P: Laugh!
M: If 0 is neutral then 5 is excellent and minus 5 is bad. You want to be sitting at two or three on a regular constant basis.
P: Yes, there we go.
M: And that’s your starting point for peaks that go up to five and troughs that at times might go to minus 5. But if you’re in a good mental state, are more likely to only go to zero.
P: It also makes you a bit more resilient.
M: Oh, absolutely.
P: So when those troughs do happen, you bounce back a little bit more because you’ve got the tools.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: And I’m stopping clicking, sorry. I get it looked at when I click, laugh.
M: And the weird this is you probably hear this every second episode.
P: Laugh!
M: Yet I’ve listened back to our podcasts and half the time you can’t even hear the clicks.
P: See!
M: So it’s an imaginary thing that we are talking about.
P: Laugh! Anyway, getting back to the podcast.
Laughter.
P: It’s that resiliency that comes from having that base level of happiness and that base level, which you’ve got to work hard to get.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: Don’t get me wrong people. You’ve got to do the work people all the time. That allows you to bounce back from those troughs, really well and possibly or maybe a little bit quicker than someone who isn’t on that 2,3 level.
M: Yep, definitely. And that’s really the definition of resiliency it’s how quickly you bounce back. So this lays the foundation and the groundwork for bouncing back quickly when things so to shit.
P: Yes, I like it.
M: Which is my word of the day, obviously. Shit, shit, shit.
P: Laugh.
M: So what is the problem with this happiness paradox and chasing happiness? There’s kind of three things that we’re talking about here.
1. So the problem, the first one is that we’re often not good at predicting what will make us happy.
P: Yes, laugh.
M: So the car, the house, the bigger house.
P: Mmm.
M: You might get the bigger house and then spend all you Saturday mornings cleaning it.
P: [Exasperated voice] Oh Yes…
P & M: Laughter.
M: Right? Or that car just very quickly becomes yet another car.
P: Or you have to tune it up, send it to the mechanic every six months because you want it to be maintained.
M: Absolutely. Or the big house comes with a really long commute.
P: Mmm, yes.
M: So we are really bad at predicting the things that will make us happy. So that’s the first thing.
2. Secondly, we are really good at setting super high standards that we just can’t achieve.
P: Hmm.
M: And so we say ‘I want to be a general manager of my company by the time I’m 30.’ A lot of millennials –
P: Yep, yep.
M: – are saying this and realising the harsh reality that we’re looking at and going ‘no, it takes 30 years to get there. Anyway I’m not going to dis millennials…
P: Laugh. [Whispers] They’ll come for you.
M: Laugh. [Panicked voice] Ok, I take it back, I take it back.
P & M: Laughter
P: They’re all around us, laugh.
M: But we set goals like I wanna be GM by 30. And then when it doesn’t happen instead of actually being something that you can be happy about. Proud of [what you have achieved], it actually becomes a source of negative emotion.
P: Discontent, yeah.
M: Yeah.
3. And then the third thing is that when we’re focused on getting to a goal, we can often forget to enjoy the journey.
P: Absolutely, oh sooo normal.
M: Absolutely. So that’s why the happiness paradox exists and sort of what it’s made up of. And we’re all so guilty of doing this.
P: Laugh! Very much, laugh.
M: So, I’ll throw to you now Pete. What can people do to get off that… treadmill? I’ll call it a treadmill.
P: I’ll bring in some research here.
M: Ooh!
P: A 2010 study conducted by Senay, Alvarez [Albarracin] and Noguchi from the University of Illinois.
M: Are you sure you said that right?
P: No, but I went with it, and I was confident!
M: Laugh!
P: So therefore, in my brain I’m telling myself I said it right and I’m just blasting on through. Laugh!
M: We will make sure the spelling is right in our show notes.
P & M: Laughter.
P: They talk about interrogative self-talk and how we can put ourselves into a hole by the sorts of thoughts that are going through our head. And when that comes down to being goal oriented, when you don’t get the promotion or you don’t achieve that goal, it’s this negative internalisation that just goes [whispers] ‘I’m not good enough. I’m not good enough’ and it eats away at you. And that doesn’t allow you to celebrate the small victories that you might have had along the way.
M: Yes.
P: So you didn’t get the GM role. But you developed a whole heap of skills which are going to make you much more employable to another industry. And you might change industries in five years time and find that you’ve already skilled up. But you forget to celebrate those small moments.
M: Yep.
M: Mmm.
P: That’s that base level of happiness.
M: It’s what we’re saying about enjoying the journey, not waiting to be happy at the end, but enjoying the process of learning on your path to may or may not be a GM by 30.
P: Yeah. One of my favourite monks Gelong Thubten from the UK talks about a saying ‘happiness is not a destination, it is a journey.’
M: Yeah, I’ve seen that on a T-Shirt somewhere, I’m sure.
P: It’s so true. A lot of people go, ‘oh it’s all new age crap.’
M: [Laugh]
P: It’s not new age crap. It’s, it’s a fundamental truth. When you start looking into this stuff, it becomes so prevalent and just believable.
M: Yep.
P: I think we mentioned him in our first episode when we first with our whole paradigm around what is happiness?
M: Mmm hmm, yep.
P: All these sorts of thoughts came out.
M: Well talking about this, again it’s like going back to that first episode when we first started looking into all of this research and before my blog and before the accident, I had followed life’s script. I was doing what society expected of me, which was to succeed at life.
P: Yep.
M: And I look back now and I feel like I’ve come out of a fog for 30… 20 something years –
P: Laugh.
M: – of my life.
P & M: Laughter.
M: I was following the script and I was succeeding and I wasn’t happy. And I did get happiness from the successes along the way from the promotions and the good grades at school and the extracurricular activities and the marriage and all of that stuff that your meant to do.
P: Yep.
M: But they were tick boxes and there were very superficial levels of happiness that were gained from that.
P: We are tick box oriented, especially in western society.
M: Absolutely.
P: It’s reinforced on us. We’re taught to be goal oriented, which is positive.
M: Right from the first day you went to school.
P: Yeah, yeah absolutely. And that’s fine but It’s not the be all and end all.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: So sometimes it’s about the process of learning and understanding of what you experience along the way, and I think that that’s the change that’s going in the world at the moment. I feel with positive psychology we’re much more aware of enjoying the journey, taking part in the fun things as well as not just being ‘I’m gonna sit in my room and study for 20 years so that I get this accolade.’
M: Or be that single focused and as we’ve discussed many times before, the way to get your engine revving at a 2 or a 3 is cultivating those strong social relationships.
P: Definitely.
M: And that’s really undervalued in our society, spending time with family and friends.
P: Yep, older generations.
M: It’s the first things you cut when things get busy and to make sure you’re looking after your mental and physical well-being. And again those are the things that get cut when things get busy and three, finding meaning and purpose in your life. And a lot of people are really disillusioned with their jobs because they assume that would give them meaning and purpose.
P: Yes. Goal oriented.
M: And they don’t. Yeah exactly.
P: I’ve got the job that I have my dreams. Why am I not happy?
M: Yep.
P: You’ve got to have some fundamental beliefs in there too people.
M: Yep.
P: You’ve got to have some other things running through the river. Oh, that was a good one!
M: Are you peeing in the river?
P: No, I was thinking of the fishies!
P & M: Laughter!
P: Oh, I was on a good one there!
P & M: Laughter!
P: Shut down again.
M: Love it. So, really what we’re saying is you’ve got to get off the treadmill by making a decision. I have decided to become happier now.
P: This happened to me in London. I think I’ve mentioned it before, it’s the journal moment where I was journaling all my worries and my ‘I’m frustrated with this blah, blah, blah.’ And then I read it back one year and I went ‘Oh my God, I’m depressed!’
M: Laugh.
P: This is horrible! I started using journaling-
M: Stressed or melodramatic?
P: I! …yeah.
M: Laugh.
P: Clutch my pearls ‘How dare you!’
P & M: Laughter!
P: So I made a conscious choice to start writing down positive stuff. What happened today that was good.
M: Yeah.
P: And that was the switch that flipped, and then all of a sudden, my brain was starting to notice things that were good, and I started looking for them. It’s the red car principle. You’re going to buy a red car. Then all of a sudden, all you see are red cars. It’s the same thing.
M: Absolutely. For me, as you know, it was nearly dying.
P: Yeah.
M: Nearly dying made me go ‘surely there’s more to this life.’
P: Yeah, Laugh.
M: And I stumbled across all of this research and was just baffled that no one had taught me any of this before. I’d been missing all these life lessons and by blogging and podcasting. It has become such an integral part of my life, and I’m happy.
P: Yeah, it’s good.
M: It makes such a big difference.
P: I agree, I agree.
M: So these podcasts, and I know that we’ve had people write to me and mention these podcasts are a great way for them to keep in mind weekly all of the positive psychology activities and thinking that can positively impact their weeks and their lives as well.
P: Yeah. Keeps you honest.
M: Definitely. So you’ve got to take the jump.
P: Ha ha, buy in!
M: Take the happiness jump!
P: Laugh.
M: So by being in that old paradigm that so many western societies, still! It’s western capitalist societies still push, you’re delaying your happiness.
P: Yeah.
M: And the last thing you want to do is be on your death bed and think ‘I succeeded, ticked all the boxes.’
P: ‘Is that the entire journey?’ Yeah.
M: ‘But really is that it?’
P: And it can be as simple as celebrating dinner with your family.
M: Yep.
P: It’s ‘Oh the family’s home, let’s have a dinner together. Let’s sit down and be next to each other.’ And those small activities that you do do, catching up with your mates once a week on a Sunday for a pub lunch. They’re important connections to keep going.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: So, when you do get busy or you are pushing for a goal-oriented task, don’t forget the small stuff.
M: Yeah, give yourself permission to prioritise that stuff, and as we mentioned before it’s stuff that you cancel first, but it’s the stuff you need the most when you are under the pump at work, you need to make sure you make time for the gym and that you still see your friends; Because that will make you stronger and more resilient to make it through that tough time at work.
P: It takes your focus away from the thing that’s causing you grief.
M: Yep.
P: It separates your… We know the saying. ‘volleyball is its own bubble.’
M: Oh, absolutely.
P: Laugh. Have a crap day? Go and play some sport.
M: Yeah.
P: Go and do something that’s motor skill oriented. It will take your mind off your concern at the moment.
M: Particularly if you can hit things hard.
P: Laugh! Preferably not the other players.
M: We do not condone violence, laugh.
P: Hey, a good 6 pack is a good 6 pack.
M: Laugh. Ok we only condone sport endorsed violence.
P: Laugh!
M: So, another couple of things that are really good for getting off that treadmill and that ‘I’ll be happier when’ way of thinking is gratitude. So as we’ve mentioned on other shows, gratitude is about retraining your brain to notice the positive.
P: Mmm.
M: And a really simple, simple way is, to particularly if you’ve got a partner or significant other or a housemate every night just swap stories of what went well today.
P: Hmm. It’s huge, I understand as well with my husband, we do that. How was your day? Grunt. What was good about it?
M: Exactly and I love the way you say ‘what was good?’ Because if you say what are you grateful for? We run out of ideas.
P: Laugh.
M: [sarcastic tone] I’m grateful for the clean air.
P: Laugh.
M: And like it becomes really a tick box exercise, right?
P: Yeah, yes.
M: But if you say what went well? It’s easy to always find something that went well.
P: Absolutely.
M: And that’s, that’s practising gratitude. And the other one is mindfulness.
P: [Softly singing] Aaaahhhh.
M: Stopping to turn your phone off or to enjoy the moment you’re in, whether you’re standing at a bus stop, having dinner with your family or catching up with a friend or just taking some time before your workday to enjoy the sun on your face.A
P: Watering the herb garden.
M: Yep.
P: Standing in the garden, watering in the sunshine and go ‘Oh, it’s going to be a nice day.’
M: But actively, actively committing to being there in the moment.
P: Yep.
M: Definitely. All right, well, that was the happiness paradox.
P: Hope that was interesting for everyone, Laugh.
M: I’m still picturing the cat with the spikey ears.
P: Laugh! It was an image! I still like my river reference, I thought that was more, more pertinent anyway, I’ll come up with better analogies next time I promise.
M: I’m seeing people upstream peeing into the river.
P: Laugh.
M: And merging and melding into one…
P: And on that note!
P & M: Laughter.
M: Thanks for joining us.
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
[Exit music fadeout]