Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Marie and Pete discuss and agree to disagree on whether working one day a week will bring you happiness.
Transcript
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
M: So, if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes I think we’re kind of funny.
P: Okay, I’m putting in a caveat for this episode. We have two cats on the bed with us.
M: Laugh.
P: And they’re attacking my shoes.
M: It’s a team show.
P: Laugh, it’s Marie’s team.
M: Yep.
P: I’m on the outside for once.
M & P: Laugh.
M: I will say though, Happy Easter to everyone.
P: Yes. Oh, that happened didn’t it?
M: Yes. That did happen.
P: Yay! Yeah that’s right, we watched football with your husband.
M: We did.
P: Well, he watched football, we chatted.
M: Laugh.
P: Which is how we watch football.
M: Laugh, pretty much.
This week we are talking about a great study, which I am very supportive of,
P: Laugh.
M: which has found that flexible working is a winner.
P: Flexible working or minimal working?
M: Look, we all know minimal is great.
P: Laugh.
M: But essentially new research has come out, which shines a light on a new aspect of flexible working and says that the five day workweek is not conducive to optimal well-being.
P: I agree with this.
M: Our current model is broken.
P: Laugh.
M: So a bunch of research has been done by researchers at Cambridge University. And they looked specifically last year at people who’ve been furloughed in the UK,
P: Right.
M: people who’d lost their jobs. And they looked at people who were working full time, people who had no jobs and people who were working only one, two, three or four days a week.
P: Ok.
M: And guess who were the happiest people?
P: I know what you’re going to say.
M: You know, the answer.
P: Laugh.
M: It’s a really, really bad guess who. So why don’t you tell us, Pete?
P: The one day-ers has got the job.
M: They were the happiest. People who work one day a week are the happiest.
P: But you can hear all the cynics out there going ‘yeah, but who could afford to work one day a week?’
M: Well.
P: Ah, there’s a but!
M: Well… yes. I think for now, yes, we could be cynics about that.
P: Alright.
M: Definitely. So the researchers looked at the employment routines of about 5000 people during the past year, and it was an unusual year.
P: Yes, true.
M: Alright, it definitely was. And they found that people who work one day a week were happiest. People who worked… who didn’t work and didn’t have jobs were the most negatively impacted.
P: Mmm, yes.
M: But one day a week, followed by two days a week, had the benefits of employment in terms of mental health and engagement and purpose and meaning, but also had really high happiness levels compared to people who work three, four or five days a week.
P: Yeah, right.
M: And the worst was no days a week.
P: It’s like everything I guess it’s a balancing act, we don’t want minimal, but we do want some interaction and contact.
M: And purpose and meaning.
P: Yep, purpose and meaning is a big one. I’m thinking of a client of mine who’s, I think who is 83 and he still goes to work every morning and opens the shop.
M: I love it.
P: Yep, and that’s his job, he may just sit there and do nothing sometimes.
M: Laugh.
P: And after work he comes and gets a treatment from me. But he, lovely Sam, he constantly talks about having purpose and having that routine, and that, that’s what he has done all his life and that if he didn’t do that, he would find it very dull and boring. And his life wouldn’t have meaning which would not bring him happiness.
M: Or he’d have to find new meaning –
P: Yes.
M: – because I wouldn’t say necessarily that people need to never retire. But I will say that 40% of people who retire are depressed within a year.
P: I’ll agree with that yes, because they don’t replace it with anything.
M: Exactly.
P: They just go ‘oh, I’m going to have nothing.’
M: Yes, that’s the point. So you can’t do nothing.
P: No.
M: And for a lot of people, their job gives them that purpose and meaning.
P: Definitely, and that’s a really important reason to get up in the morning and get going.
M: Yep. There are some really smart companies and really smart countries out there, like Spain, Germany and New Zealand, who are already trialling for day work weeks.
P: Interesting.
M: And I think that we will start to see this pick up steam, particularly in light of Covid, when it’s been the biggest flexible work –
P: Experiment? Laugh.
M: – experiment, laugh, in the world. Whether it was because people were furloughed or were working 50% of their original hours because shops couldn’t afford to keep 100%.
P: Yes.
M: Or whether people were made redundant or were working from home. Or were doing all kinds of other different ways to make ends meet. We’ve had the biggest experiment ever, and I think that we’re only gonna see an acceleration of all these trials around what a work week should look like in the future.
P: It’s a recalibration of work to see what is most effective. And it’s good, it’s good to ask those questions, like anything, talking a lot about it in terms of happiness is asking the right questions, taking the time out to check in. So why not do that in our work hours as well?
M: Yep, and I think we’ve known for a while now that the 40 hour workweek is so broken and we say 40 hour work week in Europe, a lot of the time, it’s 35 in a lot of government jobs in Australia, it’s 35. It’s a seven a half hour work-day with a half hour lunch break, which is 9 to 5.
P: Right.
M: But in a lot of corporates it’s 8.30 to 5 or 8 to 5, with a one hour lunch break.
P: A lot of research is saying that we’re working more.
M: Yes.
P: That we’re working longer hours, that’s the research I’m looking at.
M: Yes, and we’re, we’re not even the worst. In America (USA) they are working even longer hours.
P: Yes, and it’s that perception of keeping the job. Don’t buck the trend when you’re asked to do extra time because you have a job so don’t want to lose it.
M: Or a lot of managers are just old school, and they want to see people at their desks and you get rewarded for working later and for being there longer.
P: And that’s –
M: That’s presenteeism.
P: Yeah, what is Observance? It’s being seen. Laugh.
M: Yep. Absolutely.
P: It’s not to do with productivity, it’s ‘are you there?’
M: Yes, and ‘are you committed?’ And those people, unfortunately, get rewarded. Whereas the people who skip out of the office, because they’ve done their work, at five and have other commitments are seen as less committed to the job and the company. P: You would say that’s a very, well I would say that’s a very narrow-minded view of work efficiency and work proficiency.
M: And look, the HR view of this is that that is a narrow-minded and old school view.
P: Yay, I got right!
M: But that doesn’t mean that people aren’t people and that Managers aren’t all lacking leadership training at times. Some, some are more trained than others and some are more self-aware than others. And a lot of people aren’t up to date on the latest and do still want to see their people at their desks.
P: Interesting.
M: Yes, definitely.
P: So, one day a week. What does one day do for you? Does it just give you lots of time off to go and frolic through the forest and jump in the ocean?
M: Well, that’s another really interesting thing about this study. They don’t mention what, what people are doing, the rest [of the time.]
P: Oh, is that with everything? They don’t say why these people are happier. Is it because they have more leisure time? Is it because they have more space to do other things that bring them purpose and meaning?
M: I have a feeling part of it is a reduction in stress.
P: Hhm.
M: I do think that five days a week, plus trying to raise a family or be a good husband or wife and friend and daughter and etcetera and fulfil all your other obligations. Nowadays, life’s busy –
P: Yep.
M: – for a lot of people, and one day a week gives you a lot more time to fulfil all your other obligations, whether they’re self-imposed or imposed by others.
P: Yes, yes, I agree.
M: So I’d say you get a reduction in stress. I would also say so, you know, so to bring it back to me.
P & M: Laughter!
M: I took a job last year and negotiated for a four day week.
P: Mmm.
M: And also, Covid hit around the same time. And so I got about 10 hours worth of commute and make up time back.
P: You’re still fulfilling your, inverted commas, 40 Our commitment.
M: Yes.
P: So you’re doing four days, but they’re big days?
M: Four long days. Yes, but I have the friday off to work on the podcast and the blog and the book writing.
P: Mmm.
M: And I launched a book last year, I’m also studying.
P: Yep.
M: So I’ve filled that time with other things that bring me joy and happiness.
P: Sure, yeah.
M: I spend time with friends on the weekends. I have a very full week, but that flexibility has allowed me to do other things that bring me joy in happiness.
P: Mmm. A friend of mine negotiated that in the UK about 15 years ago. He just decided he said ‘No, no, no, I need my day, my one day.’ He was very, very advanced, Mr. Marshall, if you’re listening and he moved back to Australia and he kept his job in the UK and has still kept his job in the UK. He’s in [the] medical research field.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: And he has always maintained a four-day working week, for it would be about 15 years now. And he is inundated with work at the moment with the Covid [pandemic], the vaccines, he’s on the front line and reading nine research papers a day and publishing information on it, so very busy.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: But he’s still sort of, you know, tries to maintain that four-day working week.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: And that fifth day is his day to go and do some reading, walk in the park, go on, have a coffee somewhere or go and see a therapist or get a massage or all those things that we would love to do if we had the time, inverted commas, laugh.
M: Yep. And the weekend just doesn’t give you enough time to do all those things and a lot of the time things that you want to do are closed on a weekend.
P: Yes, sometimes we’re trying to fit into schedules, are pre- determined for us and that makes scheduling difficult.
M: Absolutely.
P: And any groceries done. I mean, I don’t want to be there at six o’clock when everybody else is standing in line, it’s really annoying.
M: I love online shopping.
P & M: Laugh.
P: Oh, no.
M: Such a man, laugh.
P: I like to check it, see if there’s any little bits floating around inside. Smell it. Take a bite put it back on the shelf.
M: Laugh. Poor Covid.
P: I’m going to challenge you here, Marie, because I’ve actually done a little bit of research as well.
M: Ok.
P: And the whole one-day concept does come down to your perception of what that working week is. So, I’ve got a couple of studies here, one of them being from the Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Findings that they found were that Americans may be happier, working more hours in comparison to their European counterparts because they believe more than Europeans that hard work is associated with success.
So, their reward mechanism is telling them that if they spend the five days, 10 hours sitting at the desk and the boss is seeing them, they’re actually getting themselves a reward because their perception is that it’s healthy for them, so they’re therefore happier.
M: Oh, no more successful. No, the study showed –
P: But doesn’t that lead to happiness?
M: – No! Success does not equal Happiness. So, this is something we’ve discussed so many times success and happiness and not tied, not tied together. So the study that you’re referring to says that they believe that hard work is associated with success and I would argue in America (USA), and we’ve discussed this many times before and in particular even last week with the World Happiness Report that culturally in America (USA) there’s a real drive to success and it’s at the detriment of their happiness.
P: Ok.
M: And I would actually argue that this supports that, that they perhaps think it is better for them and it will make them happier. But I’d really question whether or not that drive for success is actually making them happier?
P: Well, according to the study I’ve got here, they’re saying Americans may be happier because. So, I would say that they’re assuming it drives happiness levels.
M: They may be happier working more, not that they are, because they believe more than Europeans do that hard work is associated with success.
P: Hmm, Okay.
M: Agree to disagree on this one? Laugh.
P: I think we’ll have to, yeah. Laugh!
So, a second study that was done actually in New Zealand by Peter Roborgh and Stacey Barrie, sorry, Barrie Stacey, got that around the wrong way, laugh. Anyway, they were looking at promotions, particularly for males.
M: Yep.
P: And how the hours per week spent working were affected by the job promotion and what that did for their satisfaction and what they found, was that the average well-being was significantly higher, even though the working hours increased and the annual holidays became shorter. So they’re saying, I’m assuming, that it is about perception and that tie in – you’re shaking your head.
M: That’s not how I’m reading it. Keep going though, laugh.
P: I was making the assumption there that it is about the perception of what you are achieving. So, if you are working longer hours, if there’s a purpose in mind, if there’s a goal in mind. Again, it comes down to that success that you were talking about. But that perception does drive a certain amount of contentment and happiness for you.
M: I think we’ve spoken before about comparing and looking around you and seeing whether or not you have more than others –
P: Oh, we’ve definitely spoken about that.
M: – can increase your happiness. So maybe that does factors into how people view their happiness and their lot in life, their situation in life. So, I read here income and socioeconomic status both dropped markedly following the promotion, career change.
P: Which you would think would create unhappy, you know, not contentment and stress.
M: Yes, yeah. Look, I’d have to read, I’d have to look at the report a bit more, I don’t think there’s enough there from what I can see. But, you know, there could be a number of factors into why a promotion could lead to someone being happier.
P: For me the takeaway from that is, it’s about the perception. So if you’re invested in your identity as a worker or whatever and that that driving for those goals or success rates or however you want to measure it can bring about a certain amount of happiness for you because you’re feeling good about your contribution.
M: Yep. Look, I think we’ve discussed studies in the past that show that you do definitely get a spike when you hit these moments. But whether or not it is sustained is the question.
P: Well, sustained comes into a different realm because you know you can’t keep working longer hours forever.
M: Yep.
P: You know that doesn’t work.
M: Yeah, definitely.
P: Especially with the factor here of holidays being decreased. I don’t know if I agree with that, but for some people, obviously it does work in terms of the study.
M: We’d have to look at why?
P: Yep.
M: Look, what I find interesting about the one day, a week and all of this is that we’re right in the middle of a huge amount of change in particular brought on by technology.
And there’s been quite a lot of discussion over the last decade or so, decade or two even, about how robotics and automation is going to lead to less jobs.
P: Hmm, Automation of the workforce.
M: Yeah, and look depends on who you talk to, but anywhere up to 40% of jobs will be lost in the future.
P: To automated?
M: Automation and robotics. Things that we used to be able to do as humans, that will be outsourced now.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: You know, many argue that that will be replaced by other technical jobs. So you need someone to look after the robots and fix the robots and etcetera, etcetera and the systems.
P: Or direct them.
M: Yep. But overall, everyone says we’re going to lose jobs. Which means if we continue with this idea of working a 40 hour week, five days a week, that there will be 40% of people, potentially, who will have no job. But if everyone only works two or three days a week, then there will be enough jobs for everyone to go around. You’re talking about job sharing as well? Role sharing?
M: Yep.
P: Those are solutions.
M: Yep, definitely. Or just you know, you work two days a week. Your role is two days a week of work and there might be four people who do a role like yours. Yep.
P: It’s an interesting one because they think that to me, laugh, poking the bear here. It’s the climate change argument of pulling things out of fossil fuels and going to renewable energies and all these people saying but what about the jobs? What about the workers that are gonna be out of work? Well, retrain.
M: Yep.
P: Put you into different areas where you have to adapt and you have to retrain and go with where the job opportunity is, which is in renewable energy and not in coal mining.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: I mean, that’s my basic argument with my mother when she brings it up, laugh.
M: I come from a family of coal miners, laugh, and I agree.
P: I understand what you’re saying when people are going –
M: You can’t fight progress.
P: – I’m at risk of losing my job. Okay, so re-train.
M: Yep.
P: Yep, re adapt. The medical field is the same as well. The huge advancements in robotics is that surgeries will no longer be done by human hands.
M: They’re already being done by robots.
P: They’re all being done by robotics.
M: Well, some.
P: Well, no. But that’s the prediction. And in the not-too distant future, all surgeries will be done by AI machines because they’re more precise.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: And with what we’re doing now, with surgery and the nature of it being so specific, it needs that level off accomplishment. However, surgeons [and] doctors will still need to be consulted, will still need to be referenced because the robot can’t tell what’s going on with you, can’t give you the necessarily assessment.
M: Oh, Yeah they can! GP’s are going to lose their jobs to.
P: I don’t agree with that.
M: And have you ever been into a doctor’s surgery and they actually get on Google to look stuff up?
P: Laugh, no.
M: Because there’s more on the Internet and more research than any one human can possibly know, and there’s more advancements every day, than, than anyone could stay across. You have to be able to rely on computers nowadays to analyse things properly.
So anyway, this is all getting into the lovely geek elite tech discussions.
P: That is true.
M: But I think that working one or two days a week is really the utopia that we should be striving towards.
P: Laugh.
M: If there won’t be enough jobs out there because computers can do it better, I’m not going to be crying.
P: Laugh. Yes, well, there are other factors involved in terms of sustaining that, being able to live on that.
M: So there’s this great idea called UBI, Universal Basic Income and a country like ours is kind of in a good position. I’d say, definitely the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand, or probably more advanced or more likely, to implement this. But if everyone gets a basic income from the government and then works one or two days to keep the economy growing and churning along with support from computers, then we’re all happy. Happy days.
P: Mmm, laugh.
M: Utopia has arrived.
P: Laugh! I could see a very political speech taking off from there Marie.
M: Laugh. All right, well, that is our discussion of why you need to work one day a week.
P: Laugh.
M: I haven’t yet worked out how to make it actually financially viable, laugh.
P: There we go, yep. Sounds like a wonderful idea.
M: And I don’t know any bosses who would be in for it.
P: Laugh!
M: So, do what you will with information we’ve provided.
P & M: Laugh.
M: But if you can, definitely if you’re working 40 hours a week or more I would be looking at how that’s impacting your happiness.
P: Yep, very true. You know, that’s the crux of the argument.
M: The takeaway.
P: Yes. And so we’re going to leave you with just a few tips, and Google is your friendly place to be. So if you do want to ask for more flexible work arrangements. You can simply Google ‘ask for flexible work.’ And there’s so many videos and articles about how to have a conversation with your boss or how to negotiate when you get a job to negotiate those more flexible hours to work around your life.
P: And I think they’re much more open to the idea now.
M: Definitely. Now’s the time to ask.
P: Laugh.
M: All right, see you next week.
P: Bye, folks.
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
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