Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Pete and Marie talk about Love Maps, building intimacy and trust and staying emotionally connected to the people you love.
Transcript
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
P: This podcast is about how to live the good life. Whether we’re talking about a new study or the latest news or eastern philosophy, our show is all about discovering what makes people happy.
M: So, if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes I think we’re kind of funny.
[Intro music fadeout]
M: And we’re back, Hi.
P: Hi, laugh.
M: So today we are talking about love maps.
P: Love maps. This sounds like something you do at a party.
M: Love maps. Sounds like some soppy thing that a psychologist gives you when you go to marriage counselling.
P: Laugh.
M: I really am such a cynic, aren’t I?
P & M: Laugh!
P: Essentially you are, laugh.
M: Yes, deep down I really am, laugh.
P: Laugh.
M: So the reason we are talking about love maps today is firstly because I recently just did one with my husband and we had a great time doing it.
P: We get to find out a lot about you and your husband on this show, don’t we?
M: We do, my poor husband. I don’t think he signed up for all of this.
P: Ha ha, tough.
M: Laugh, yep bad luck. And the reason why love maps is so important is that one of the basic foundations of happiness is strong relationships.
P: Yes, we’ve talked about this before. Intimate and strong, long lasting relationships build happier people, and they increase your quality of life into your senior years. Those people who have significant others into their seventies and eighties have a much higher quality of life and that doesn’t just relate to health, but it relates to interactions and feelings of security and happiness in general.
M: Absolutely so I think the biggest study is the Harvard –
P: Definitely the longest, laugh.
M: Yes, the longest definitely. So the study of adult development at Harvard, which was started in 1938 by Dr Arlie Bock. So it is still going, and it is the world’s longest running longitude… longitudinal study –
P: Such a hard word! I’ve been trying to write it lately and I keep tripping up going longit-ti-di-ti-di-nal.
M: Laugh! – of adult life and researchers have been studying two groups of men in the US since 1938 and tracking them through their lives, and there was one group of men from Harvard but another group of inner-city Boston men as well.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: And they tracked them by getting into answer questionnaires every two years and being personally interviewed every 15 years. And I believe, after a number of years, they started adding women to this study.
P: They did it about halfway through they started asking that their spouses to come in to be interviewed as well.
M: Yep, so they got a more rounded idea of these people’s lives. And so they followed these two groups from adolescence or, you know, late teens through to retirement and older. And the researchers identified over these people’s lives several factors that predicted healthy ageing. So, there’s stuff that we all know we should do.
P: Laugh!
M: And we don’t.
P & M: Laugh.
M: There’s limiting alcohol, getting enough exercise and maintaining a healthy weight. But they also found that a good marriage is also really important. Other factors in there, our education and mature coping skills.
P: Mmm, life skills.
M: Well, I think these are the mental health skills that we’re now starting to teach, like self-compassion and forgiveness and all of those other things that we didn’t used to focus on being kind, gratitude, all of those things that we never spoke about 20 years ago, I didn’t grow up hearing them. But having a good emotional maturity –
P: Yes.
M: – is going to do you well in life.
P: Yes.
M: And then the big one. So the big, big lesson to be learned from the Harvard study is that the most powerful influence on a rewarding life is the simplest, intimate relationships.
P: Ta da… Find me a husband, laugh.
M: Intimate, doesn’t mean husband and wife.
P: No, it doesn’t.
M: Or husband and husband or wife and wife.
P: We’ve talked about this before. Intimate relationships take many forms and identities, and that you can investors much into an intimate relationship with a friendship as you can with a partner.
M: Or a mother or sister or…
P: Yep, all those sort of things.
M: Or a besty Pete!
P: Laugh! Absolutely. And I’ve got some more contemporary based research that
M: Oh, well! Contemporary.
P: Well it’s from this century, laugh!
M: Look, this is still going, and they’ve actually started the second study of adult development.
P: Oh wow.
M: So.
P: It’s a sequel!
M: It is!
P: Longitudinal study version two.
M: Pretty much.
P: The beasts comeback, laugh.
M: But what more recent studies to you have, to share?
P: Well, these are more from psychological science and these are on the happiness levels in terms of relationships, and we’ve got one from Brown, Nesse, Vinokur, and Smith in 2003 that talks about how providing social support is more beneficial and how that can contribute to your happiness levels and ergo longer life.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: And what this study found, this is one of the often cited studies because it targeted the fact that providing social support, so being the person in the community that helps to look after others has more benefit than actually receiving it. And we’ve talked about this in a previous podcast about receiving gratitude or receiving –
M: Kindness.
P: – Kindness, but giving kindness is the big key to increasing your happiness levels and having them maintained throughout the rest of your life and into senior years. And then there’s another reference from Diener and Seligman.
M: Oooh, they’re big wigs.
P: I noticed, you know these people, laugh.
M: Everyone knows Seligman.
P: Yep.
M: Father of Positive Psychology.
P: Laugh. And they were talking about the self-rated happiness scale and the people that they found at the top of this scale who were averaging around 30 out of 35 spent the least amount of time alone and were rated highest on good relationships. So, these are the people that if you like, the happiness gurus, the guys that are scoring high and maintaining happiness seem to also –
M: They’re social, they’re social.
P: Yeah, they’re out there, they’re doing things, but they also have good relationships good, intimate relationships which is a defining factor in the study.
M: Yeah OK, and they’re spending a lot of time with other people, too.
P: Yeah and they’re not sitting at home.
M: There was a recent study that came out during COVID that talked about how the amount of incidental interaction that we’re having with people has dropped off significantly.
P: Understandable.
M: And we shouldn’t discount that when it comes to loneliness. So it’s not only about seeing your friends and family less. It’s about not seeing the guy at the coffee shop as often.
P: Oh! I’m devastated that I’m not seeing my barista any more.
M: Laugh.
P: It was a 12 year relationship, the longest relationship I’ve ever had.
M: Laugh!
P: Alex, if you’re out there, I miss you. I love you, and my coffee is never the same.
M: And we really don’t think about that as being part of the social needs that we have.
P: Oh, I do.
M: It’s that smile with the person –
P: Totally.
M: A lot of people don’t get it.
P: I used to walk into that place and come out with a hug.
M: You’re special, sorry. Laugh.
P: See I just bought in. I was like ‘I like going in here.’ Laugh.
M: Or perhaps, you know, having a quick chat to the uber driver or saying hello to the bus driver when you get on and off and saying thank you.
P: Yep.
M: Those incidental interactions with people are not happening as often because we’re not venturing out as much, but also with masks it makes it even more difficult.
P: Yes, dealing with masks is difficult because you’re not judging how people are responding. And sometimes it isn’t what said, It’s a smile.
M: And if someone’s crinkling their eyes are they just old or are they smiling at you?
P: Yeah.
M: Like, it’s really hard and I don’t want to… yeah.
P: Oh yeah.
M: Yeah, there’s a whole cultural thing there as well that you can’t get into, laugh.
P: And there’s the whole thing about mask acting and how you have to express other ways without using your voice. It’s a, it’s a skill that not many people have.
M: Mmm. All right, so back, back –
P: Off track.
M: Yeah, off track.
P: [Rewind noise.]
M: So back to what we’re talking about, which is healthy relationships, laugh.
P: Ok.
M: And how they are critical for a happy life and a long life.
P: Yes.
M: So the question then becomes, how do you have happy relationships and good and positive relationships? And I’ll take back the word happy because good relationships often times are not happy. There’s stress and things go wrong, and we yell and behave badly, and we’re all human.
P: A good relationship survives those little moments.
M: Yes, and the big ones.
P: Mmm? Yeah ok, I won’t argue with that. And you can have those, and that’s not just a marriage situation –
M: Mmm hmm.
P: – with intimate friendships.
M: Yep.
P: You can have your little, the little moments where it all goes pear shaped, you don’t speak for a little while.
M: Yep, yep, absolutely. Or when someone puts the keys in the wrong mailbox.
P: Oh!
M: Laughter.
P: That was a communication issue.
M: As many issues are between married couples.
P: You were cranky, laugh.
M: Laugh, I was, I’ve apologised.
P: Laugh, it’s ok. I laughed.
M: So the way to having strong relationships, there are many ways and there are many things that factor into this, but really what we’re talking about here is about knowing and being known. So knowing the other person and being known for being authentic and vulnerable with them.
P: Oooh, that’s a big ask.
M: And sharing. And so how do you do this today? As we said before, we’re going to talk about love maps.
P: Do we need to get crayons?
M: …Sure.
P: Do we need colours?
M: Of course.
P: Ooh, yay.
M: The whole rainbow.
P: Laugh, you said the right word.
M & P: Laughter!
M: So love map is a way of getting to know your partner or friends or family. And it was created by psychologist Gottman, who did 40 years of research with thousands of couples, and he’s well known across the world for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction.
P: Ooh god, it’s someone good to have at a dinner party.
M: Absolutely.
P: “Could you tell me if I’m going to be with this person in ten years? Should I propose tonight or not?”
M: Laugh, “Or should I run?”
P: Laugh.
M: So in 2007, the psychotherapy networker described him as one of the 10 most influential therapists of the past quarter century.
P: Wow.
M: That’s pretty impressive and look, as we all know, divorce rates have been going up, so I’m sure we’ve been keeping him busy.
P: Laugh.
M: So according to Gottman, the couple’s most likely to enjoy marital closeness and satisfactions are the ones who build richly detailed love maps.
P: Oh, ok.
M: And what do you mean by that is when you go to a new city, you pull out a map and use it to explore the new city. A love map is a way of exploring your partner, getting to know them, and their inner world.
P: Ah.
M: And we do this quite naturally when we first meet. You know those butterfly moments when you meet someone that you like and you ask questions like, “What do you dream about?”
P: Oh my god!
M: “What are your goals?”
P: Oh my gosh! That’s when I turn into the cynic.
M: Laugh, and when you’re in that moment, it all seems completely natural and normal.
P: Laugh.
M: [Sweet voice] “What do you dream about doing?”
P: Oh my lord, laugh.
M: Uh huh. But then we stop. We stop asking those questions, and Gottman argues that in relationships you should be circling back on those types of questions and checking in with your partner or your friend or your sister –
P: I support that, yeah.
M: – more regularly.
P: It’s a refresh.
M: Yep.
P: It’s like goal setting, you’ve got to go back and do it every now and then because your values change.
M: Exactly. We all change over time.
P: Yeah, definitely.
M: Yep, so the Gottman Institute has created a card deck called 52 Questions Before marriage or moving in.
P: Laugh! I’m going to pull this out the next time I interview a flatmate “Excuse me, I just have a couple of questions for you… 52.”
M & P: Laugh.
M: And really, these questions help you map your partner and really explore areas that might not be top of mind when you’re 15 years into a marriage like me.
P & M: Laugh.
M: Or, you know, after your through that honeymoon phase. So this is really about re-exploring your friendship, your relationship, whatever relationship you pick.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: So some of the questions in the deck include:
In what ways do you operate well as a team? In what ways could you improve?
P: Oh, ok.
How is this relationship different than those that have not worked out?
P: Laugh.
M: Tell me Pete, how is our relationship different than those that have not worked out for you in the past.
P: Hmm. You make me go to things.
M: Laugh.
P: I don’t have to drive the boat. You say we’re going to Magic Mike, and I say Yes!
M & P: Laugh!
M: Shhh, it’s a secret.
P: I’m so going to be the individual man.
P: It’s going to be funny.
M: It will be funny.
M & P: Laughter!
M: Ooh, the big one!
What are your main strategies for coping with tough financial times?
P: Now that’s a vulnerable question. That’s a really vulnerable question. Yeah, you have to, you have to. You have to be very earnest, honest about your own actions when it comes to what do you rein in? What do you, what do you do in that situation? I think that’s a really, that’s a big one.
M: Is it enough to say you don’t have any… You just spend money when it’s there.
P: No.
M: Laugh.
P: No, I think that’s a really good one, because I think that shows how you restrict and how you pull back. It’s also a value decision.
M: It’s values.
P: What do you value the most? What do you actually keep going with? And what do you sacrifice for the interim?
M: Yeah, absolutely.
P: And that’s a really insightful answer.
M: And to be honest, I left home at a reasonably early age and put myself through university, and I had no financial strategies. It was try to make it through the week with enough money for food, laugh.
P: Or, let’s go a France on the scholarship fund and eat 2 minute noodles, laugh.
M: For the rest of the semester.
P: Laugh!
M: See! I didn’t have good money management skills.
M & P: Laughter!
M: Because I didn’t have any money.
P & M: Laughter!
M: So, when I did start having an income, and it was around that time that I met my husband, I still had no financial strategies. So, we’ve had some very interesting discussions over the years, laugh.
P: But I think that’s also a bonding thing, going through the tough times actually makes you stronger.
M: Yes, but I’d say that you can’t always expect to have the same outlook on things, and going in with your eyes open is probably better than discovering it when you already committed.
P: Okay. Yep.
M: I would argue that one. I think that’s why it says questions before marriage or moving in.
P & M: Laugh!
M: It’s good to align on these things beforehand, like, “Do you want kids or do you not want kids?” before you get married.
P: What?
M: That’s a big one too.
P: When are we having children?
M: Laugh, we’re not getting married honey.
P: Oh hang on, I’ve already given you the roses.
M: Laugh. So, ooh I like this one, and for anyone who’s ever had a roommate.
P: Laugh!
M: How will you decide who is responsible for which chores?
P: Laugh!
M: Otherwise, you get stuck cleaning the toilet for 15 years of your life, laugh. I think you’re in that position too, are you Pete.
P: Laugh.
M: So, I thought –
P: Does it come down to who does a better job? Laugh.
M: Yeah, well it doesn’t count if they do it but don’t do it right.
P: Ha, Charlie don’t listen to this.
M: Mmm hmm.
P & M: Laughter!
M: All right, the point is though to have these conversations and to talk about these things with your partner or your, you know, friend, lover, whoever it is you’re trying to get closer to, sister, brother, mother, father any type of close relationship.
P: Yeah, right.
M: So you might not even know the answers yourself to these questions until you’ve been asked them.
P: Very true.
M: And it’s about talking them out and getting to know yourself better. But also getting to know your partner better.
P: Mmm.
M: And the next lesson off this is that we should be making being curious and asking questions of each other habit.
P: Those conversations need to happen, but not all the time, but they need to circle back every now and then.
M: Yep.
P: Like a chicken. We have a mutual friend couple that do have these conversations once a month. They sit down and they go on a date. They sit down and they go “Right, this, this, this, this pissed me off this week.”
M & P: Laugh.
P: I actually think It’s a very honest and open understanding, and they do it every month, and I think it’s a, I think it’s a real strength of theirs. It’s all cards on the table. I’m not going to edit myself here. I’m going to put it on the table. So then you can either talk about it or say Well I don’t agree with you on that, but there’s a there’s a calmness rather than you blowing up in the middle of the dinner party going [hysterical voice] “Oh my God, you did this!” then lobster on the ceiling, the whole thing.
M: Waste of lobster.
P & M: Laugh.
P: Yeah, it is. But honest and quite frank conversations. And I think having them more regularly means that when they do happen, you’re not scared by them.
M: So without naming names, I know you’re talking about. And I would say that although that relationship started off well, a little birdie told me that they’d forgotten to do them over the last couple of months.
P: Oh.
M: So this is maybe a little bit of a kick up the butt for that couple in particular.
P: Laugh.
M: But [also] for all of us, because they put this in place is a really pure and good thing to do when they first got together, so that they could get to know each other better and talk through these things.
P: Hmm, yeah.
M: And as we’ve discussed here, that’s really easy in the honeymoon phase.
P: Yeah, true.
M: It becomes almost hard work after a year or so.
P: Yeah, righto.
M: So, I did a love map with my husband last weekend, and it took us the whole weekend to get through all the questions.
P: Wow!
M: It was a long weekend, three days and we did it over dinner and meals, and we sat down at one point outside in the sun and went through a few questions. But they really are great open-ended questions that can take you down so many unexpected paths and conversations and that really help you understand yourself a little bit better. So they’re things that we don’t always ask ourselves.
P: Hmm.
M: And that can help with your own personal growth as well as getting to know each other.
P: Hmm.
M: And if you competitive, like me, we nailed it way!
P: Laugh!
M: I have to say, laugh!
P: Of course, you did.
M: Laugh.
P: Of course, you did. Laugh.
M: So we asked these questions of each other and worked out who knew more.
P: Laugh.
M: At first it was a competition between us, because everything’s a competition.
P: Laugh.
M: And then it was, how well have we been connecting? It was almost a litmus test of whether or not we started growing apart. And I think we did pretty well, so I came out of it feeling pretty good.
P: Nice.
M: I was pretty chuffed.
P: That’s good. That’s a positive. Good for you, well done.
M: So, before we leave, I’m going to test our friendship Pete.
P: Oh gosh, I didn’t sign up for this! Laugh.
M: Laugh.
P: Pressure.
M: All right. So, the question is, what was your favourite vacation?
P: Well, that’s easy.
M: So the question is, what was my favourite vacation Pete? And I’ll answer yours, what was your favourite vacation.
P: Oh, is that how it works.
M: Yep.
P: Oh, okay, I am going to say, driving around Paris, driving around France.
M: Yeah.
P: [Triumphant] Laugh!
M: I think that was pretty spot on.
P: It was pretty special, yeah.
M: Ooh, I think probably that trip would have been up there for you as well.
P: Yep, I’m nodding.
M: Yep.
P: Nodding in agreement there.
M: We were both on the same trip.
P: Yeah.
M: Yeah, but look, Paris was pretty special, but I’d say that Sweden was also pretty cool as well.
P: Yep, yep, yeah.
M: Well all right, I think we nailed it!
P: Laugh!
M: Besties for life!
P: Laugh, woo!
M: Yay!
P: There we go, we’re done. Who needs 52, we just did one.
M: Laugh.
P: Maybe we can do one a year?
M: That works.
P: See if we can make it to 52 years of friendship, laugh.
M: I like it. I like the intent there. Anyway, I really recommend you can Google the Gottman love map at Gottman and pull this up and I really recommend just pulling it up, taking a screenshot so that you’ve got it on your phone. And next time you see your family or your friends or your loved one, just start going down the list.
P: Yep, I reckon it’s a great cocktail hour game.
M: Absolutely.
P: Yeah. It’s a good one for you too, you can ask a few questions and see how crazy they all are, laugh.
M: All right. Well, on that note we’ll leave it there. We’ll see you next week.
P: Enjoy your love maps.
M: Yep.
P: Bye.
M: Bye.
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
[Exit music fadeout]
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