Happiness for Cynics
This week, Pete and Marie discuss a recent study which has thrown the age-old adage “Money can’t buy you happiness” on its head. Could it be true that money can buy happiness?!
Transcript
M: You’re listening to the podcast happiness for cynics. I’m Marie Skelton, a writer and speaker on resilience.
P: And I’m Peter Furness, A believer in bubbles, a coercer of caper-isms and a doyen of decadence. Each week we will bring to you the latest news and research in the world of positive psychology, otherwise known as happiness.
M: So if you’re feeling low.
P: Or if you’re only satisfied with life but not truly happy with it.
M: Or maybe you just want more?
P: More! Then this is the place to be.
M: This week we’re discussing a recent news story, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Money Does Buy Happiness.
P: Insert snide comment here.
[Happy Intro Music]
M: Okay, so this week we’re talking about a new study which was reported on, I first saw it in Washington Post, and it has thrown the age old adage ‘Money Can’t Buy Happiness’ on its head.
P: Cobble wash. I don’t believe it for a second.
M: I knew you’d love this one.
P: Folks, you are about to see Peter and Marie be at opposite ends of the scale.
M: [Laugh] I’m, just reporting on the news, people.
P: Yeah, yeah, you and your science.
M: So pretty much it’s not good news for the growing lower class who are being left behind due to the ever increasing wealth gap. So the study by researchers Jean and again, I’m going to mispronounce names. Oh and by the way-
P: Hoo-geh [hygge].
[Laughter]
M: – it turns out our episode a couple of weeks ago where we did, there was a disclaimer, wasn’t there Pete?
P: We did. We did say that we weren’t owning the fact that we could pronounce it correctly.
M: Yes, and the Danish have done it again and tricked us.
P: [Laugh]
M: So I have a colleague from Denmark who corrected me. It’s not ‘hoo-geh’, it’s ‘hee-geh’.
P: I still like ‘hoo-geh’.
M: [Laugh]
P: Hoooo-geh!
M: [Laugh]
P: It just makes you laugh, common. Go with me on this?
M: So anyway, this research again, apologies if I miss-pronounce your name.
This research by Jean [M] Twenge and A. Bell Cooper was published in July this … [year] by the American Psychological Association, and it shows that there’s a growing class divide in happiness in the US. So, looking at findings in a general social survey, Twenge and Cooper found a positive correlation between socio-economic status (so that’s income, education and occupational prestige) and happiness. And the positive correlation has grown steadily since the seventies, all the way til today.
P: So are they saying that with the increase in income, you have more ability to feel happiness?
M: No the self-reported happiness. People are happier when they’re earning more.
P: Okay. I’m with you on..
M: As their socio-economic status rises, so do their happiness levels.
P: Does this come back to Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs, which we mentioned before?
M: No.
P: No?
M: No.
P: Damnit, I thought I was onto something there.
M: We could go down that route, if you really want it. [Laugh]
P: Does it mean that money gives you a certain freedom to be able to look beyond the necessities and then focus on happiness. Is that what they’re saying?
M: Look, I think you could… hhmm, the study doesn’t say that, but I would definitely say that’s worth exploring.
P: Right.
M: And I think that previous studies have definitely shown that there comes a point where your basic needs are met. So that is Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. So your basic needs are met and that frees you to focus on larger things like happiness.
P: This study is talking about the definite link between income or socio-economic status and the ability of happiness.
M: And happiness, not even the ability of happiness, just happiness.
P: Ok, I’m on board.
M: Yep.
P: I’m just going to put my glasses on.
M: So there you go, that was our episode. Thank you for joining us.
P: [Laughter] Oh, no. I have so many more questions here.
[Laughter]
M: So I think the really interesting thing here is that previous studies had shown that there was little link between happiness and income.
P: Okay.
M: So this is new. This is different and what we’d seen in previous incomes is that after a certain point, after your base needs are met, which many believe is about $75,000 a year, US. So after those basic needs are met, then your happiness levels don’t increase in proportion to increases in salary.
P: Oh, okay, okay.
M: So that’s what previous studies have shown.
P: Have talked about, right?
M: This study is actually saying nah. It’s all gobbledygook. Throw that out. Actually, your happiness continues to increase as you continue to earn more.
P: To a certain point or is that an exponential graph growth?
M: They’re saying it is tied and correlates the whole way through.
P: Alright, okay.
M: Keep earning more, you will be more happy.
P: Okay. All right. Let’s, let’s go forward with this. I’ve got a lot of, you know, ancient texts that might challenge you. [Laugh]
M: So I think it’s worth saying that there’s a lot that, they possibly, a lot of fringe cases that we don’t know about.
So the general social survey covers quite a few people, but obviously there’s so many different elements to this and facets to this that we could explore, and that’s what today’s episode is a little bit about. But to go back to the studies.
They say that over 40 years, the happiness levels of high wealth individuals have been consistent, whereas the happiness levels of poorer individuals have slowly declined, according to the research.
So in an interview with The Washington Post, Twenge said that the link between income and happiness is stronger now than in previous decades, so something has shifted in the last 20/30 years.
P: Hhmm. Okay.
M: Also the decrease in happiness among lower income people may be a result of rising inequality, increasing real estate values and decreased ability to pay for education.
So it’s not necessarily that the people getting more are getting happier. It’s that the people who are in the bottom income brackets are feeling less happy.
P: I would go, I would go with that. Yes, I’ll agree with that one.
M: There you go, point proven and again ‘Thankyou for joining us.’ [Laugh]
P: Hang on now, back it up Buttercup.
M: Alright, what have you got to say about this Pete?
P: I can see the reasons why the lower socio-economic status would pre-destine you to being more challenge to experiencing happiness. But is this buying into consumerism. Is it buying into the fact that we need to have materialistic things around us to be happy? Or are we talking about, I’m thinking of discarding the socio norms and discarding the house, the car, the 2. 4 Children with the dog and all that sort of stuff, having the latest television and all that sort of thing and coming back to those really basic needs of happiness that we have and finding value and joy in the small things, celebrating the small victories, finding joy in the fact that I am celebrating the fact that I can walk down the street on a sunny day.
M: All of those things that you teach people to be grateful for when you practise gratitude is what you’re getting at. And absolutely I think that’s the good news here. So if you’re not earning 75,000 year and you are living week to week and at times you wonder how you’re going to pay bills or rent etcetera. That doesn’t mean you can’t be happy.
P: Which is kind of the point that I’m getting to in a roundabout way. I don’t want listens to feel that they can’t access happiness if they’re not earning 75K a week. Because then that for me buys into the whole concept of ‘you need to focus on earning more money’, which doesn’t buy in.
M: Damn it, that was one of my tips.
P: Aagghh [Spluttering incoherently]
M: [Laugh] We haven’t gotten to that part yet.
P: My bad. Back it up, sorry.
M: [Laugh] Make more money. Look, I absolutely agree, however. I’m going to caveat this, there is a lot of research into what makes people happy, and:
- Having happy things in your life is one thing that increases your happiness level;
- Getting married;
- Getting a promotion;
- Having good friends around; [and]
- All those kinds of things.
Positive affect is what they call it.
P: Yes.
M: Those things increase your happiness level.
Negative affect:
So you know, not having negative health impacts, not crashing your car. Not all of those bad things that can happen in life, and they can impact your happiness levels.
P: Mm hhmm.
M: And then the third bucket. So good things happening. Bad things not happening. They both impact your happiness levels.
The third piece is really, it’s the everything else bucket, and it’s, some people argue that there’s a bit of nature versus nurture, so are you predisposed to being more optimistic than pessimistic or more of a realist, that kind of thing.
P: Okay.
M: And also, how have you been conditioned to view the world? Are you, again, just more of a happy person by nature? All of that in there. And one of the arguments in there that’s being explored recently, particularly in positive psychology, is this idea of comparing our lot in life to others. And it is –
P: Mmm. This is the whole Facebook thing.
M: Yeah, yep, that’s part of it, definitely. But if you look around at everyone else in your community and you think you’ve got it worse off than everyone else, it is really hard to be happy.
P: Okay.
M: And we’re wired and biologically set up to compare ourselves with others, and that impacts our perception of our lives and that is a huge driving factor in our happiness levels.
P: Oh, I’ve so got a quote for you. [Laugh]
M: So, I am going to say that even though I agree with you that there is so much you can do, if you’re not earning a lot of money and you’re struggling financially, to make yourself happy. It is not easy, if you compare your life to others and you see-
P: I agree, comparing is not the way, is not the route to happiness because that’s an external measurement that you’re focusing on. It’s not an internal balance. I will quote this it comes from His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. “Happy people focus on their inner growth. Unhappy people blame the outer world.” I like that because for me, that’s a real fundamental perspective of if you want to buy into happiness, then look at your internal self. Look at yourself. Don’t think about the bad things that happen to you or the bad external things that you have no control over, the elements that you can’t control. If you’re blaming that for your lack of happiness, you’re not doing the right work. You’re not looking at the perspective in the right way.
M: I kind of agree with that and then I kind of don’t.
P: Is this part of your cynical side coming out do you think?
M: No, no, this is me fully buying into the positive psychology thing. The reason I don’t is that I think one of the other amazing Dalai Lama quotes. It’s not a quote, but because I don’t read that crap-
P: Oh!! [Hyperventilating.]
M: like you do. But one of the ideas that he is famous for is that if you want to bring happiness to yourself, focus on others and I think that’s also a beautiful-
P: Ah, yes.
M: Yeah, and, and, and look, they’re not that diametrically opposed.
P: No, they’re not actually.
M: But I am. I’m such a firm believer that helping others is your path to happiness for anyone who’s having problems.
P: I agree with you but.. definitely.
M: I don’t think we’re disagreeing.
P: No, not at all but we’re looking at it in different context.
M: Yeah a different context.
P: I guess I’m coming at the point of if you’re looking at money being a precursor to your happiness.
M: You’ll never be happy.
P: Exactly. It’s like it comes back to that basic episode we did, don’t search for happiness because it’s not something you can, you can achieve.
M: Yep
P: It comes as a result of other things.
M: Yep.
P: We’re getting very esoteric here, maybe.
M: Well, no. I think that’s the whole point of an episode about money and happiness.
P: Mmm. Okay, so let’s look at more of the research, perhaps, and the justification behind this. You’re saying $75,000 is the base measurement?
M: Yep. You’re sad if you’re earning 60? what did I say? 75?
P: 75K.
M: $74, 999 but you happy of your earning $75, 001.
[Laughter]
P: So look..
M: I think also this doesn’t take into account stress and stress can be a huge, It could be one of those negative affect elements that I was talking about.
P: That people earning a 100K are more stressed than people who are earning 60K?
M: No. Absolutely not. Stress again can be very much how you perceive it and how you react to external as well.
P: Yes, definitely.
M: However, if you have a family of four on 75 K in New York City, that money doesn’t go far-
P: Or in Sydney.
M: Or in Sydney, and that constant financial stress that you carry around day in, day out about how to educate your kids, put food on the table, pay the bills, the minimum, is going to wear on you, wear you down.
P: And I absolutely agree.
M: And so I think there’s stress when you’re a low income earner that doesn’t come with the higher income earners, necessarily.
P: Yes.
M: Now you can always overspend and spend too much and, you know, get too big a mortgage for you to manage, and you can still be financially stressed when you’re earning more. But there is definitely a financial stress of living in the lower socio economic groups.
P: I’m on board with you there.
M: That again, that doesn’t mean that you can’t implement real tactics to manage stress better to do some really good solid budgeting and mindfulness and all of those fabulous things that help you deal with stress, acknowledge it, work it out, label it and manage your stress.
P: Address the problem as opposed to not addressing it.
M: Yep, and there will be bad months and bad pay weeks and all the rest of it, unexpected bills.
But you can manage that and still work on being happy and take the kids to the park on a Saturday morning, which is a free activity rather than to Luna Park.
P: Yep.
M: Yep, where you didn’t see them for the day anyway because they were running off on rides. So I still think that it is very possible to own your own happiness. If you’re in the lower socioeconomic groups, there is just a little bit more stacked against you at times.
P: I find that an interesting perspective because my whole being recoils at the fact that I have to achieve a certain income to be able to achieve happiness. And I guess that comes from my own personal experience of being for want of a better term a down and outer in London and going okay, it’s a really expensive city, and I’ve got to make this work for me, and yet it was the most fabulous city for me at that time, and I wasn’t earning a lot of money, I was struggling to pay rent and so forth. But damn it was fun! [Laugh]
M: I did the same thing. I when I was on scholarship in the States, I spent my food money for the semester on a trip to Paris.
P: [Laugh] And then ate McDonald’s chips for the next three months?
M: 2 minute noodles, pasta… yeah.
P: And the joy that you can get out of that.
I think this is the thing, it’s about balance. It’s about, I wouldn’t like our listens to fall into the trap of thinking that they have to achieve a certain financial goal before they can even buy into happiness. I think that’s the wrong message. I’m gonna put that out there.
M: I agree.
P: But your, the research is saying…
M: The research is saying that, you know, that there is a reality to it –
P: There’s a correlation between earning more money and actually being able to experience happiness, at a more cognitive –
M: And just being happier.
P: Being happier.
M: Just being happier.
P: Mmm. My whole body recoils at that statement.
M: So if you’re financially stressed it would chip away your happiness levels. So I think it makes sense to me, perfect sense to me.
P: Well?
M: So on your bottom 10% it would be chipping away your ability to be happy.
P: Yeah… I don’t agree.
M: If you’re financially stressed? So you weren’t?
P: No. I get the financially stressed aspect of it but there comes over a certain resiliency. And maybe it’s my angel loving ways and the belief in the universe providing me with what I need. And, you know, the struggle is my goal and my gateway to a higher self and all this sort of stuff. To, even though you are in a financial stress is to take joy and to take time to appreciate the small victories and the small aspect of like, yeah, I’m having a coffee with my partner in the morning in the sunshine on the balcony and that can still bring about an amazing amount of joy. If you have your perspective and if you have the want to see temerity, then won’t it be the right word? The perspective to be able to recognise those small little joys and still celebrate them, even though you are financially stressed.
M: Yep, I agree. But without the financial stress, you would be happier more often without trying.
P: O..kay? Alright, I’ll give you that.
M: It’s like, yep. I Think we’re saying the same thing.
P: Essentially yeah, it just recoils me.
M: If you’ve got a rain cloud always hanging over your head. You can enjoy looking at the flowers in the rain, –
P: You can put your galoshes on and jump in the puddles.
M: – but eventually you go, ‘I’m really cold and I’m wet and this sucks right now’, and you pull up your socks and you get out that again tomorrow. But it’s still there. It’s always there.
P: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, Ok. I’ll give you that.
M: Woo hoo, one win for Marie.
P: [Laugh]
M: So, apart from ‘make more money’, do you have any other tips for listeners, Pete? As the eternal optimist.
P: [Lots of Laughter] You got me to laugh so much. Oh, that’s funny. Happiness on a budget? Is that what we’re calling this?
Own the small stuff.
I think it is about mindfulness and a bit about clarity of going ‘What is it that’s going to make me joyful? And if that is walking in the sunshine when it’s sunny and walking down to the lake or the park and standing there and rejoicing in the joy off the moment, I think it’s really about experiencing the moment that for me is a great, solid to hold on to even if you are in a financial situation or you are under a budget conscious level.
Celebrate the small wins.
When you have a small win celebrate it, pat yourself on the back, buying yourself a $2 bottle of wine to celebrate a little victory, that’s great.
M: Does that exist any more?
P: In France maybe?
M: We used to get passion pop for $3.
P: [Laugh] The Coolabah goon bag.
M: I’m not going back there. I would just become a teetotaller if that’s my option.
P: I’m going to drop a story here. I love you, my darling sister and my brother in law. But this is fabulous. They were, they were financially hard up when they had their first child and they were sitting on the couch on a Friday night. And I think it was my brother in law who put his hand down the side of the couch and found a $10 note.
M: Woo, score!
P: And they bought potatoes. They bought a bag of potatoes and that was dinner, and it was the best dinner for them because it was roast potatoes.
M: Everyone likes a roast potato.
P: So that’s a celebration, a celebration and they celebrated that. I’ve heard Cath talk about this, you know that was their, that was their moment, they found $10 yes! Let’s have butter on potatoes!
That’s a small win and recognising that, owning that and celebrating that together, I think that’s really important.
M: Yeah true, very true. All right. Well, we do need to wrap up. That is the end of today’s podcast. I think the conclusion is money does and doesn’t buy you happiness.
P: It’s about your perspective people, don’t think you need 75K to be happy. You don’t. That’s what I’m going to say. [Laugh]
M: Yeah, I will give you that.
P: Thumbs up to the research.
M: All right, so [Ba bow – gameshow failure noise] to this latest study.
[Laughter]
M: All right. Well, thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast.
P: And remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, the site about how to find balance, happiness and resilience in your life, including some really practical tips and resource is to get you started on your happiness journey. Until next time.
M: Stay happy.
P: Choose Happiness. [Whispers] For 75K.
[Happy Exit Music]
Related content: Read Moving On article Turns Out Money Does Buy You Happiness, Study Finds, listen to our Podcast: What is Happiness? (E1)