Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Pete and Marie talk about why we need to stop structuring all our time and start playing more.
Transcript
M: You’re listening to the podcast happiness for cynics. I’m Marie Skelton, a writer and speaker on change and resilience.
P: And I’m Peter Furness, BBC drama lover, sofa shopper, Jungle Gym partaker. Each week we will bring to you the latest news and research in the world of positive psychology otherwise known as happiness.
M: So if you’re feeling low.
P: Or if you’re only satisfied with life but not truly happy with it.
M: Or maybe you just want more.
P: Then this is the place to be!
M: And take us one step further on our happiness journey, today’s episode is all about play.
[Happy Intro Music]
P: Play play play play, play play play play-
M: – Doodley do, do, doooo. Charge!
[Laughter]
P: It’s all about being a kid again isn’t it?
M: Oh, it so is.
P: Yeah, yeah. You need to play.
M: We just need more playing in our lives.
P: It’s good to play. It has so many benefits.
M: Absolutely, So there is again, all of science about how more playfulness in adults brings greater well-being. And so that’s what we’re talking about today. How to bring more playfulness into your life.
P: Lovely, so define play for us Marie?
M: OK.
P: According to the science.
M: According the science. Well is definition science?
P: I don’t know, we might have to consult the Collins dictionary for that one.
[Laughter]
M: Ok, so according to Jeff Harry, who has a super cool job, he is a Positive Play Coach.
P: I want that title.
M: Right.
P: “I’m a Play Coach”, imagine being at a party. “I’m an Accountant”, “I’m a Lawyer”, “I’m a Play Coach.” What? [Laugh]
M: “Should we talk about it at the dinner table?”
P: [Laugh]
M: So anyway, Jeff Harry teaches corporates how to bring more play into corporate world. And again well-being. All of it’s tied together. Everything that we talk about is all interrelated and interlinked. So you get better employees outcomes and better returns and better…
P: KPI’s?
M: No.
P: That’s the generic term. I’m going with the generic term, you’re the corporate here.
[Laughter]
M: You make more money. That’s what I’m getting at. Happy employees, happy bottom line.
P: OK, So what does Jeff say?
M: Okay, so he says one way to think about play is an action you do that brings you a significant amount of joy without offering a specific result.
P: I like that because again it’s again the buy in mentality. Just go in and let’s see what comes out.
M: Also, I think going back to the title of our Podcast Happiness for Cynics. I think a lot of adults see play as a waste of time.
P: Ooh, yes, yes, they do. I agree with you there.
P: Or don’t have a specific outcome.
M: And that’s such a shame, because play does have such a solid, tangible outcome. It leaves you feeling better and happier in your life and leads to better well-being.
P: Mmm. Completely.
M: But there’s this perception with play that it’s a waste. It’s something only kids do.
P: Wow, I’ve got such a different experience from that. [Laugh]
M: Me too, me too. Absolutely. But having said that, I think only because we’ve started looking into all of this stuff. Not because pre my accident and pre this happiness journey I would have ever thought about dedicating time to play.
P: Oh it’s been through my life from primary school. We had a wonderful primary school teacher, Mr. Burns (Bernasconi) and we were the envy of every other class because at a moments notice, he would say, “right books down, we’re going outside for a game of rounders. And all the other kids were like “why does Mr. Bernasconi’s class always get to go outside for rounders?” And he was a big believer in playing and that what that did for cognition and for behavioural development and all that sort of stuff, and also for being able to stay motivated and engaged with class work is by doing something physical and going out and having a play.
M: Absolutely. So the physical part of that, definitely.
P: Definitely.
M: There’s a lot of research. And again the Scandinavian countries are really good at integrating physical exercise with breaks during the day, with flow and deep thinking and learning and breaking up the day into short, sharp, deep exercises, whether that is swinging on the swings or learning math and breaking up your day that way.
P: Mmm.
M: But definitely it’s really good for your head and for your mind.
P: I also feel really lucky because with my theatre experience, acting, dancing, anything in the creative process, so much of it is just play. And I remember being in a studio once with a very well-known choreographer who would pursue these periods of indulgent play and it wasn’t to call-
M: -Oh, you said indulgent, which means you do think that it is not necessarily constructive.
P: No, in terms of the creative process. When you’re working with some choreographers, they’re like “This is the step, this is a step, let’s perfect it.” I say indulgent because it’s the way that the creative director would.. Oh, what’s the link here? It’s where the creative director would garner content so to create content. It’s not necessarily about ‘that bit there we want that’, there was this view of creating play and allowing people to go off and discover new things. It may not end up on the floor or in the performance at all, but it brought you to a different place that was able to bring forth other content.
M: So in no way was it indulgent, it was part of the creative process.
P: Well, no. Yeah, you’re right. I said a bad word.
M: Bad word, take it back. Take it back!
[Laughter]
M: I think it’s really important to take that to the corporate setting where a lot of organisations have realised that despite their intent to have every person in the organisation be innovative and to continuously improve the way that they do whatever it is they do, but also to come up with new ideas. It rarely leads to any big, ground-breaking, new innovative ideas. What does help though is putting people in that different mindset.
P: Mmm.
M: Breaking them away from their day to day and throwing weird and uncomfortable and all kinds of different experiences at them to put them in a different headspace.
P: I saw a lot of transference in the latter part of my performing career of people that I knew, colleagues of mine who have gone into the corporate workspace exactly for that purpose. They were brought in as theatre coaches as drama coaches to create new ways of thinking and result.
M: Absolutely. And creativity doesn’t happen when you are doing the same thing you do every day.
P: Yes, neuroplasticity. Which brings me to my point on play.
M: Yes, tell me about the link between neuroplasticity and play.
P: My take on play is that it creates a neuroplasticity of the brain, and this is all about offsetting the factors of life, such as cognitive diseases such as Parkinson’s and Dementia. So this is probably more in the latter stages of life for many people. But the value of play is that we’re asking our brain to constantly find new pathways and constantly find new reactions to stimulus that keep our brains active and offset that development of cognitive disease.
M: Absolutely. And look, it’s not just in the elderly. I think that for too long people have hated school so much often that it’s about trying to get through it, and then you never have to look back. And what we’re finding is that, that was fine when we thought that you couldn’t grow past your teens that you couldn’t make new neural pathways.
P: Yes.
M: But now we know growth mindset is a thing. We understand that you can continue growing and learning and changing through your entire life, and that with just a little bit of curiosity, you can make those new neural pathways, and you can stretch your mind so much further than we ever thought possible before. You can change careers to 2, 3, 4 times in your life and retrain, and you can teach an old dog new tricks.
P: Definitely, yeah.
P: And that’s where play can actually have a great avenue for change. Playing with different stimuli. I’m talking about sports. I’m talking about action flat rock climbing, one of the jokes a rock climber never does the same climb twice. You always end up in a different position, so you have to solve the problem of finding a new foothold or a new arm hold even if you’ve gone up that stretch of climb before and I like that analogy…
M: Sure.
P: [Laugh] I guess for me that relates to constantly finding new stimulus on that relates back to the neuro plasticity. Playing will often bring about new things and new aspects when you’re playing with someone especially, I talk about this in a movement concept because for much of my university, when I was doing a degree in dance performance I couldn’t play.
M: Why?
P: I was so nervous, I was too scared to play and I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine about it, Robert Gryphon, he was the big playful bloke. So Robbie and I were the two of the larger men in the class and so Robbie was always in there, rolling and playing. I was always standing on the side and he said, Why don’t you? I said “I’m too scared.” You’ve just got to jump in.
M: Mmm Hmm.
P: And I took that and eventually one day during I do remember jumping in and the rolling around, instead of going off in the corner and being quiet and [doing] yoga in the corner and it was great. It was fun and then that became a professional development later on, when I was working in a company in Adelaide and we were doing improvisational work and I remember working with Aiden an amazing dancer, break-dancer/ classical ballet guy. And we were in an improv session and the whole, the idea was you had rules and you just kept on moving. The idea was to have the rules so my armpit had to touch his knee, and my head was only allowed to go to the left. But you kept moving with that principle and I remember Aiden being underneath my feet and I jumped and I thought, I’m gonna land on his neck.
M: [Laugh]
P: And I landed and I’m gonna have to drop down here to not put my body weight on his neck and my leg crossed his neck and we both rolled we rolled out of it and we stood up and looked at each other and went “Holy crap! Was that alright?” He said “that was amazing. I said “Can we do it again?” And he said “Absolutely not.”
[Laughter]
P: But that all came about through play. Were we able to re-create it. No. Was it a specific outcome? No, but it gave us the confidence to stay in that playful space. And from there came many other things.
M: I think the great thing about your stories here is they’re showing that to truly play you have to let your guard down, you have to be vulnerable.
P: Yes, oh yes.
M: You’ve got to let the ego go.
P: Yes.
P: Oh, yes, definitely.
M: And you’ve got to be okay with letting go that feeling of being judged because let’s be really, really honest, they’re not judging you.
P: [Laugh]
M: People participating, they’re not judging. They’re in it too, right? But you’ve got to get to that point and you’ve got to feel okay and safe. Psychologically safe with the people you’re around to let go and fully participate and partake in whatever fun play.
P: Fully participate is the key word there.
M: Yeah, so it kind of sounds like you maybe at the beginning weren’t ready to be vulnerable?
P: Well, yeah. I don’t know how, I was too scared to jump in.
M: And when you did, did the world end?
P: [Laugh] Definitely not but infinitely better.
M: Yeah, exactly. So I think one of the other great things of our talking about play in the current environment because we can’t go through a single episode without talking about Corona virus, of course, is that a lot of people around the world are just insanely bored right now.
P: Mmm.
M: They’ve been through their Netflix and Stan and Disney+ and they’ve re-watched all their favourites and they’ve seen all the cat videos. And what do you do when you’re stuck at home and I would challenge you to play.
P: It’s difficult sometimes to play in an environment that you know very well. It’s very easy to think ‘well, I know that room, I know that space, I know that chair.
M: For adults.
P: Yeah. Oh, yes, completely.
M: But you put two kids in a room together that they’ve been in their entire lives, entire lives, they’ll find a way and let them be bored.
P: Very important to be bored. We talked about this a couple times.
M: Yeah, let them be bored. They’ll find a way to play, right?
P: Yeah, there’s a creative way out.
M: If you don’t give them the technology as a way out, they will find a way. And for Adults it’s the same. We just don’t challenge ourselves to do it because we’re the ones that have the say on whether or not we pick up the technology.
P: Well it’s also there is ‘I’m the responsible parent. You know, I’m the leader of the pack, I’ll make the decisions and I’ll, I’ll make the facility happen. But I’m not going to get myself buck naked and roll around in the mud. Maybe we should.
M: Well, I think earlier rolling around in the mud you don’t need to be naked.
P: [Laugh]
M: But go roll around in the mud. You’re not going to catch weird diseases.
P: Well, see there. You’re putting a limit on it, you’re putting a limit on it.
M: I mean there’s… go build a fort then, or have a dance off.
P: There was a whole report about what forts do for child development, it creates havens, creates safe spaces.
M: Well, there you go. You don’t need to make yourself sick is what I’m saying, to play.
P: Yeah.
M: Find some clean mud and then go to town, fine.
P: [Laugh]
M: So look I think that it is easier to bring play into your life than you might realise. You can go Google a lot of different ways to bring more play into life. One of the ones I love is a dance off.
P: [Laugh]
M: A generational dance off.
P: Oh dear.
M: This is a great one to do with your family. If you can all name some different types of dances, so from 60’s, 70’s, there have been some classic dances through the decades and you’ll put them down on a piece of paper, pop them into a hat, and you have to do the dance and your friends and family have to guess what decade it’s from.
P: [Laugh]
M: It’s really simple, so you get up and you do the, you know, the swimming and the jiving and the Gangnam style there’s so many good things.
P: The Macarena.
M: Yep.
P: [Laugh]
M: And not only are you having a bit of fun, you know, it’s like a Pictionary night or something. Not only are you having a bit of fun, but you’re also doing a bit of exercise. So there’s a great research that backs all this up from the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg [MLU] in Germany, and they did a study with 533 participants where they did a week of exercises to boost their playfulness. And they found that you can actually stimulate and train people to be more playful, and this, in turn improves their mood.
P: Training someone to be playful, ooh I like the sound of that.
M: Again, we’re not going there Pete.
P: [Laugh] Hey I’m going along with what was his name, Jack? Jeffrey? Jeff? [Laugh] Jeffrey Harry. I’m a playful coach.
M: Play Coach?
P: Play Coach.
M: I Love it. So I guess what I’m saying is, if you don’t feel like you’re particularly playful, you can train it so you’re not stuck where you are again back to that growth mindset and neuro plasticity, you can grow and become more playful.
P: Yes
M: It is like so many other things we talk about. It’s just about being more mindful. So the way that this study worked is before going to bed the participants either had to write down three situations from the day in which they behaved particularly playfully, or, they were asked to be more playful in their professional life and write down what happened.
P: That’s a dangerous sport isn’t it?
M: Well being more playful can just be being cheeky in a conversation.
P: Ok.
M: Right.
P: That’s a good example.
M: So and again, you don’t want to cross a line, cheekiness can very easily become inappropriate conversation.
P: That’s what I mean it’s difficult to take that kind of attitude into your workplace for a lot of people.
M: And I think, but it’s where we spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week.
P: Oh, I agree, it’s valuable.
M: So important.
P: I think it would be very confronting for a lot of people, ‘oh, I’ve got to bring this new concept into my workplace with all the people in suits and ties.
M: I think it’s a shame if you think that way. And that’s, I guess what I’m saying, I’ve had some great teams in corporate environments that have allowed me to be playful and have a laugh. And those were the teams with the highest performing team.
P: Oh, I have no doubt.
M: Absolutely we had a diverse group of people who all came together for a common goal. I sound like a textbook HR ad or something.
P: [Laugh]
M: We all came together, but we had a lot of fun doing it, and they were the best teams, and there were the highest productivity teams as well. Where as the ones where the teams were solely focused on the work really lacked that team environment, and they were the ones where you know, five o’clock hit and I’d be like, ‘I’m outta here.’
P: Yeah, ‘I’m gone.’
M: Yeah, exactly.
P: So what happened with this ah, with the results of this study.
M: So again, it’s down to being more mindful about playfulness. If you want to bring more playfulness into your workplace or if you want to bring into your life at home, if you want to play with the kids more.
P: Absolutely.
M: Yeah, but so many parents just so driven by the checklist. This is another thing you need to add to your checklist, but you have to deconstruct it and make sure that it is not being driven by a need to have a result. You just need to play.
P: It’s funny I tell some of my clients, get on the floor with kids, or get on the floor with the cat. Play with the cat, play with the kids. Use the kids as the weight, as the resistance band.
M: [Laugh]
P: You’ll do things that you never thought you would have done before. The kids will love it.
M: Yep, absolutely. So the fact is, they journaled on this for a while.
P: The group in Germany?
M: They wrote it down, yeah the group in Germany. And they got so many more improvements to their positive emotions, which in turn affected their wellbeing. It worked, so it increased their playfulness and they also saw improvement in participants Wellbeing.
P: I just know this from the inside. [Laugh]
M: You do, which is why you’re here. I have to learn it.
P: [Laugh]
M: And I’m bringing our listeners along with us.
P: [Laugh]
M: Our cynics. You just do it. [Laugh]
P: I was very lucky. I was very lucky to have been involved in the profession that I was in that completely encourages this and it is that wonderful space of seeing colleagues of mine having gone after the corporate world. It’s not challenging. ‘What do you mean you don’t hang upside down with your underwear around your head?’ It’s completely normal to do… Yeah.
M: And on that note.
[Laughter]
P: Thanks for joining us today.
[More laughter]
P: If you do want to hear more about hang upside down and wearing underwear on your head, please remember to subscribe and like this podcast, you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, a site about how to find balance, happiness and resilience in your life. You can also send in questions will propose a topic for us.
M: And if you like our little show, we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or a rating to help us out.
P: That would make us very happy.
M: Until next time.
P: Choose happiness.
[Happy Exit Music]
Related content: Listen to our Podcast The Importance of Having Fun In Your Life with Dr Mike Rucker (E27)
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An additional issue is that video games usually are serious anyway with the major focus on mastering rather than leisure. Although, we have an entertainment element to keep your sons or daughters engaged, every game is usually designed to improve a specific group of skills or curriculum, such as numbers or science. Thanks for your write-up.
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Another issue is really that video gaming became one of the all-time biggest forms of entertainment for people of every age group. Kids have fun with video games, and also adults do, too. Your XBox 360 is amongst the favorite video games systems for individuals that love to have a huge variety of games available to them, and also who like to play live with other people all over the world. Thank you for sharing your opinions.
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