Happiness for Cynics podcast
Are you lonely, sad, or anxious? If so, you might need more touch in your life. This week, Marie and Pete talk about why we need to bring back touch.
Transcript
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
M: So if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes we’re kind of funny.
P: Touch. It’s my episode. It’s all about what I do. Also it’s my love language, apparently. I didn’t know that until we started doing the podcast.
M: Yes.
P: You knew, apparently.
M: I picked you, I called it.
P: Certainly.
M: Either that or we have to talk about your sexuality.
P: Laughter!
M: Okay, we’re going with touch is your love language, got it.
P: Touch is important people, very important.
M: It’s so important for your happiness and so many other things. It’s just so interconnected, everything we talk about.
P: Yes, and apparently, we’re touching less. This surprises me.
M: Covid!
P: Not only Covid.
M: Well…
P: Yeah, there’s other eelements [elements] in there as well, eelements? That sounded l New Zealand, Laugh.
M: Eelements?
P: Eelements, laugh. Apparently we have been touching less for sometime, since before covered for various reasons.
M: Well, for centuries, actually. So religion-
P: Mmm.
M: – is the first thing that we always love to blame.
P & M: Laugh!
M: But along with religion, came a shame in extra-marital touching.
P: Yes.
M: Whether it was platonic or not.
P: It became the taboo.
M: Absolutely. So it was seen as cheap, dirty, tarty.
P: Yes. Leading one on –
M: All the things that were called [inappropriate].
P: – How dare you?
M: Absolutely. So it started way back then.
P: It did.
M: And then there’s also a whole lot of different cultural differences around the world in terms of what’s acceptable.
P: Yes, and where you can touch in terms of culture.
M: Yes, absolutely.
P: Also weather. Climate apparently makes a big difference. So people who live in warmer climates are more inclined to be physically affectionate than people who live in colder climates.
M: I would have thought that would be the other way around.
P: No.
M: Cause if you’re warm and hot, you’re like sticky and gross.
P: No, well apparently not, it invites touching because of loose clothing and skin being shown and that sort of stuff. So culturally I think they’re talking.
M: Aaahh.
P: I thought that was an interesting one.
M: I like it. So there are definitely differences culturally and also just we are touching less and a lot of it more recently, back to your original point is due to technology.
P: Mmm yep.
M: We are spending less time with people we care about in face to face situations and more time with people we don’t care as much about online.
P & M: Laughter!
P: There’s a classic example of everyone sitting around on the couch with their phones on and not engaging.
M: Mmm hmm, yep. And then now we’ve had Covid in the last year.
P: Yes, we have. Yes, there’s also been some social issues as well that have actually created the fear of touch, one of them being the decades of sexual misconduct, which is starting to come to light in more recent times. So all those misconduct cases of people who were in trusted positions and that’s all coming to the floor now, with various movements and people being more comfortable coming out about it, this has created a fear of, of touch on that has become a non-desirable factor of life.
M: I think also what would have contributed to that, not only with things coming out coming to light more recently, the training that’s been happening since eighty’s and ninety’s, I’d say teachers, coaches, I know that when I’ve done all my coaching courses, they’re very clear on what is appropriate touch what’s not appropriate.
P: Yeah, I fell into that because I never did those courses and I was teaching community dance classes. And then they told me I couldn’t touch people. How am I supposed to teach them how to move without not touching them? That was very strange.
M: Mmm hmm. You are actually allowed to touch them, that’s probably bit over the top. But there’s very clear rules about how you can touch people.
P: Definitely.
M: Yes, so there’s a lot of really good touch that was happening that no longer happens. You know, and it’s caring touch.
P: Well, what do we lose if we don’t touch Marie?
M: Well, how we talk about we talk about the benefits?
P: Well, that was a direct question way.
M: What do we lose?
P: Laugh!
M: What do we gain?! Glass half full.
P: I’m usually the half full guy, I don’t know why…
M: Not a problem. Well, firstly, have you ever noticed the first thing that a kid does when they fall and scrape their knee?
P: Mum!
M: They go running to mum for a hug and mum always, sorry dad’s out there, mum’s always give the best hugs.
P: Miranda did that one when I let her off the swing.
M: Snort, Chloe?
P: Chloe, I don’t know a child dropped off the swing and I was in trouble, laugh.
M: A child let go of the swing, put her arms out for you to catch.
P: At the back end of the swing! It wasn’t my fault, I was waiting at the other end!
M & P: Laughter!
P: This way Chloe, this way!
M: So anyway, when Chloe fell off the swing, she went running to mum for cuddle for a hug.
P: She did, yeah.
M: And that is because from an early age, there is definitely a mother child bond don’t get me wrong, but touch alleviates pain. It also relaxes us and calms us. So I know there’s a lot of support dogs out there who are trained to put their bodies on people who are about to seize or about to fit.
P: Yes.
M: And that touch is calming.
P: Soothing.
M: Yes, it also is really good for the immune system. So accelerates your body’s self-healing and helps kids with healthy development as well.
P: That’s a big one, yeah. Societal development and our behavioural development is so –
M: Cognitive [development].
P: – is so dependent on touch. Yeah, cognitive as well.
M: We’ll come back to that one.
P: That’s a big one, yeah.
M: And the big thing for the last year, if we’re talking about psychological health, is that touch helps to alleviate anxiety, depression and many psychological issues, including things like eating disorders.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: So you wouldn’t necessarily make that connection. But touch is so beneficial from a physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual, you know, every perspective; There are studies, and there is research on the benefits of touch.
P: Yep, definitely.
M: Oh, and there’s one more, touch makes your sex life better.
P: Ooh, well I can’t imagine not touching in that instance.
M: Well, I think the problem is we don’t touch for long enough in the right ways.
P: Aahh.
M: So we’ll get to some studies in a second. I know we’re both itching to get to the research!
P: Now I’m getting images of the wedding sheet with embroidery around a little hole.
M & P: Laughter!
P: You can have sex but not allowed to touch.
M & P: Laugh.
M: I think more to the point, we, we’re a society now where everything’s hard and fast and sex has become that as well, for a lot of people in a lot of situations.
P: Mmm. Hug your lover people! Hold them.
M: Before and after.
P: After is really important.
M: Yeah, absolutely.
P: I could have offered a personal anecdote there, but I will refrain.
M & P: Laughter!
P: Moving right along. Let’s look at the research. So the first research that came about in the 1960’s was by a doctor called Harry Harlow, and he did a lot of research on monkeys and primates with touch.
M: So, this is a horrible study before we put a lot of ethics and morals into how we organise our studies. But essentially, monkeys were separated from their mothers early on after they were born and then tracked over time, and those monkeys compared to the control group that had the touch of their mother’s fared poorly in nearly every possible measure, so they often were found you know, like you see with animals that are stuck in zoos. They were found curled up in corners, rocking back and forth.
P: Yep.
M: Their physical development was stifled and also their cognitive development, so they were just not developing in all of the measures that you want a baby [to develop].
P: What I found interesting about this research was that the monkeys that weren’t in the controlled [i.e., Touch deprived] group were more adventurous. So my readings said that the monkeys that were given the touch were more willing to go out and explore and then would run back to the maternal figure. They were more adventurous because there are more adventurous, they did develop physically. There was even talk that the brain development was different in the control group. That the size of the brain was larger in the group that were actually exposed to touch.
M: Absolutely, and I think they found something very similar with the children in Romania.
P: This is a huge one. This is something that we both came across independently during the communist regime in the 19… I’m going a seventies and eighties in Romania a lot of horrible things happened and there was a real increase in children in orphanages. And in the overthrow of the communist regime in 1989 researchers, went back into Romania and met with these victims of the orphanages who suffered unbelievable hardship and rejection and really sort of being like being in a cell, basically.
M: Well, kind of. A lot of them were left in cribs, but so let’s paint the picture. They were given all their basic needs, they had air, water, food, friendship, others around them, they were just too numerous. So there were 150,000 of these kids across the country whose parents had passed for horrible unspeakable reasons.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: And these kids just didn’t get enough hugs and cuddles from their carers because there were too many of them. So I think it’s really interesting, when you look at these poor kids, that they had all their basic needs met and you don’t see on any pyramid; You know, Maslow’s pyramid wasn’t talking about touch as a basic need, but this really shows that if you want to be a functioning adult and grow into a functioning person who can look after themselves and contribute in society. Touch should be on that list.
P: Absolutely, yeah.
M: Because that was really the only thing they were missing in their basic needs.
P: I might have come across some different interpretations of that. I think I maybe come across more of the institutionalised information that came out through that. So from my perspective.
P: The reading that I did, Mary Carlson and Felton Earls were two people that I referenced that went over and spoke to these Children and these sufferers and at the ripe old age of thirty, these people were socially withdrawn, they were mute, inept, and the biggest thing was displaying bizarre, atypical movement patterns and violent behaviour.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: You were talking before about the movement patterns of the monkeys and so forth, and this was a shocking wake up as to the what happens when we don’t touch that people develop physical characteristics –
M: Yep.
P: – Such as ticks and shaking and all those restrictive movements that can render someone incapacitated just from not being touched.
M: Yep and again I think we’re saying the same thing.
P: Oh, yeah, yeah.
M: It’s touch right, and they were shown to develop autistic characteristics.
P: Mmm, very much so.
M: And again, a lot of people with autism can have those ticks.
P: Yep.
M: Anyway, trying to make sure that I’m not being offensive in any way.
P & M: Laughter.
M: And using the right language here.
Other studies that I find justice fascinating. So the one that really kicked off a lot of this and that I love is this story about a NICU, so the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, at a hospital. There were two different NICU’s in this hospital and they found that in one of them the premature babies were putting on more weight and growing faster. And for a premature baby, that’s a difference between life and death, right? And so one doctor decided to go spy on the NICU that was doing well.
P: This is hilarious.
M: Laugh.
P: So does the Doctor go ‘Something’s up there, I’m going to sit in here and wait.
M & P: Laughter.
P: What did he except to see? Alien beings coming in? Laugh!
M: Well, that was the problem. They couldn’t work it out. So these babies were being fed the same formula.
P: So, everything was the same between the two of them.
M: They were being cared for the same, exactly the same and they couldn’t work out why there was such a big difference. And it wasn’t a small insignificant difference, it was It was notable.
P: So what did he find?
M: Anyway, so he was there one night. You know, I picture him sort of squatting in the corner.
P: Laugh!
M: I’ve got this mental image.
P: [Whispers] Shh. You can’t see me, I’m not here.
M: Exactly, laugh. And a nurse came in and kind of had a look around and saw the coast was clear and picked up one of the babies and started just gently stroking the baby and kind of cuddling with the baby. And then she put that one down. She went to the next one.
P: I love it.
M: And so this was a nurse that I was allowed to be there, right?
P: Mmm hmm.
M: But the thinking before that period was that you had to keep them in sterile environments in order for them to survive. Right? And what they found was that the babies who were held and stroked gently were found to put on about 47% more weight than those who weren’t.
P: Wow, that’s amazing.
M: And more than that, months later they were found to be significantly more cognitively progressed.
P: Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing that keeps coming back with a lot of studies. Is our brains develop and our curiousness and our intellect develops because of the stimulation of touch.
M: Yes, Absolutely. And coming back to why we do this study, this podcast.
P: Mmm.
M: It makes you happier.
P: Yep.
M: Touch, regular touch throughout your day makes you happier. So there’s a psychologist, Jane Clipman, who asked her students to hug five times a day.
P: Ha! This is really confronting. People don’t like hugging, laugh.
M: A lot of people don’t, even pre Covid.
P: Yeah.
M: Some people, I know a person who says to me, I’m just not a hugger.
P: Mmm.
M: They cringe at being hugged by people.
P: Mmm, very much.
M: So, the hug had to be non-sexual,
P: Yep.
M: frontal,
P: Yep.
M: all face to face and with two hands. So you couldn’t do like the bro…
P: The pat on the back, the chest bump, laugh.
M: And so, she had one group of students go hug five times a day and another control group, and they found that the huggers were significantly happier a month later.
P: It works. Hugs are memorable.
M: Definitely.
P: Tammy Hunyadi, if you’re listening, I still remember that.
M & P: Laughter.
P: Well, it was our first lesson we learnt in massage class. Our very first lesson. We all stood up in a circle and we had to hug the person who was in front of us and behind us and apparently Tammy was standing behind me, and she said ‘all I saw was this bald head.’ And then this man turned around and all of a sudden I was enveloped by these arms and my face was against his chest. I didn’t even see his face.
M: Laugh.
P: And that was me apparently. She always tells that story and she says it was one of the fondest memories of our friendship.
M: Awwweee.
P: It was just this massive, enveloping of care.
M: Lovely, love it. Actually, there’s a thing that I read about a few weeks ago. I really in preparing for this episode should look this up, a few weeks ago? I mean, a few years ago. There’s places that you can go to hug.
P: Hug therapy, yes.
M: Yeah, you go hug complete strangers.
P: Yep, yep. It’s a thing and I think it’s in the Nordic countries. Dare I say it again? Good old Norwegians.
M: Yeah, Okay.
P: There’s a very famous book that was brought out it was called the Midas Touch in 1984 and that goes on touching a more basic level. It says that diners who were patted on the arm by their server were more inclined to tip more generously and that people in care homes will eat more after physical contact.
M: Mmm.
P: So that’s on a lesser level of what touch can do. But it doesn’t have to be an all-enveloping hug. It could be a slight interaction. Students who were given a friendly pat by their teachers, with three times more likely to speak up in class.
M: I think there’s a safety to a pat.
P: Mmm. There’s a reassurance, I think.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: But it does stimulate neurochemicals and get things going in the brain. And so that comes back to that behavioural development that is so important. And this all comes back from that work that Harry Harlow did in the 1960’s. It’s still informing us today.
M: Yep.
P: So how do we touch in Covid?
M: Well…
P: This is a hard one. How do you, how do you engage with touch in a Covid world.
M: I think for anyone who’s within a household, it’s a no brainer.
P: Hmm.
M: What we’re really talking about is people who have roommates that aren’t in the habit of touching.
P: Mmm.
M: Not immediate family that they live with or people who live by themselves. And before Covid even, there was the World Health Organisation was talking about loneliness as the new epidemic, right?
P: Mmm.
M: And a lot more people now can afford to live by themselves. Before, it was really cost prohibitive.
P: Yep.
M: Which is a lot of the time where people married, laugh.
P: Ha, interesting.
M: We’re going to unpack that [later].
P: Laugh.
M: But for the first time in human society. We expect to be able to buy a house and not necessarily as part of a couple. A lot of people are buying houses and living in them by themselves.
P: Yep.
M: And also on the flip side, older ages, they’re living by themselves a lot longer, and as a result, a lot of people, particularly in Covid, It’s now even worse. A lot of people are lonely.
P: Yeah, they’re not getting any touch.
M: And a big part of that, is there not hugging, touching anyone. Because if you are lonely you might see your postman and your garbageman from your window. You might wave, maybe.
P: Hmm.
M: You’re not going to hug the person behind the counter at Coles.
P: Nope.
M: Laugh.
P: Not through that Perspex glass.
M: Not anymore!
P: You can’t get near ‘em Damnit! Laugh, ‘I love you, you just gave me 30% off!’
M & P: Laughter!”
P: [Funny voice] ‘I know that guy, he sold us our furniture.’ That’s a musical quote.
M: Laugh, yep. So hugging may not be the right answer, especially during Covid.
P: But it doesn’t have to be a hug this is the thing. It needs to be some sort of physical interaction.
M: So my recommendation is massage.
P: Oh, Glad you said that, not me.
M & P: Laughter!”
P: It is interesting, though, that I’ve found this generally, not only during Covid, during times of crisis; So during the GFC that happened a few years back and in times of things like the bushfires and stuff like that, people seek out comfort and they seek out health. So, I would get people turning up to my clinic going ‘I don’t know why I’m here, I just want a treatment, I just want to feel nice for an hour.’ I’m like [internal monologue] ‘why are you seeing me, you shouldn’t be seeing me?’
M: Laugh. You fix people!
P: Laugh. They want that interaction, they want that touch. It’s very important for people because of all the sensory information that comes through. It does make you feel, for want of a better word, more loved, more secure. And that comes back to our maternal connections.
M: Uh huh.
P: When we first start out, we need to be touched by our parents. When we first come out of the out of the channels and screaming and yelling, there needs to be a nurturing there otherwise we don’t develop as well, and we don’t have all those physical attributes that we should.
M: Yep, so to be really clear, any consensual touch can make a difference.
P: Very much.
M: Consensual is important, and Covid safe touch is what we’re advocating for. If you can if you’ve got people in your household that you can try the five hugs a day exercise with.
P: I like that idea.
M: I really recommend.
P: People will struggle with that, yeah.
P: Five hugs with the person you love. It’s not that hard to do, but you’ve got to put some time and effort into it. And if you are living by yourself and can get out to someone who can… even get your nails done, or someone who, you know that’s holding hands for an hour while they do your nails a lot of the time; There’s that, there’s massage.
P: Yep.
M: Find ways to get some more touch into your day. It might help to alleviate a lot of the stress and anxiety that’s going on.
P: It will help, it will help.
M: And with the loneliness due to Covid. Hmm. All right, well, and also it is really important to ask for consent before you go do that.
P: Laugh! Don’t ask! Just launch in there!
M: Laugh.
P: I just go for it and people go ‘oh, ok we’re doing that.’ Laugh
M: Because I do want to say that some cultures and religions or just people might need more gentle touch.
P: Yes.
M: Or are afraid of touch, possibly due to trauma.
P: Very wise words. Ooh Yes. Big one.
M: Yes.
P: Yeah.
M: So consent is good.
P: I know, I just keep forgetting.
M: Laugh. Well, it’s okay with people you already know.
P: Yeah… I still want… I’m just bad like that. I’m sorry to all the people that I’ve hugged without permission, laugh.
M: I just don’t want our listeners going out and hugging people randomly.
P: Laugh!
M: Then get slapped down, laugh!
P: Please don’t slap anyone.
M: Laugh.
P: All right, on that note, we’ll finish up.
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
[Exit music fadeout]
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