Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Marie and Pete talk how nature affects your loneliness and why nature is so important for your mental health.
Show notes
During the podcast Pete references a study where findings indicated the need for both residential and non-residential areas in a city. It was incorrectly referenced to The Australian Institute of Health and Wellness and can be found in a University of NSW study through the following link.
Transcript
[Happy intro music -background]
M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.
M: So, if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.
P: Plus, sometimes I think we’re kind of funny.
M: Hey, hey.
P: And we’re back.
M: We’re back.
P: Laugh, how’s your week been Marie?
M: Um… really, really good, but really exhausting.
P: Laugh.
M: You know, those days that you look back on and they’re so rewarding.
P: Ahh yeah. You can taste that pound of flesh.
M: Laugh.
P: Shakespeare had it right.
M: Absolutely, and this week I was organising a bunch of interviews with customers.
P: Mmm.
M: Tio hear their personal stories and we had some really vulnerable and authentic people come in and share their, their good and their bad.
P: Oh yeah.
M: And how large organisations have and haven’t supported them through those moments. And that’s things that all of this go through you know we’re all vulnerable at different times in our lives. And unfortunately, you can’t just read from a script when things are going on around you.
P: Nope, gotta relate.
M: So, I think a lot of this came out of the Royal Commission a few years ago in the banking and the insurance industries.
P: Ahh, interesting.
M: You know, despite companies in theory, trying to do the right thing and ensure a consistent level of service. You know, there are some things you just can’t script and we’re human, we’re messy.
P: Yep.
M: Life is messy.
P: Yeah, it is, very.
M: Yeah, but it was wonderful to just have those open and heart-warming and gut-wrenching discussions with people who were there to help us be better.
P: Yeah that’s doing the work, isn’t it?
M: Yeah. Yeah, kind of. Having a chat with people who are lovely, laugh.
P: It is but putting yourself in the vulnerable position and putting yourself in the receptive position as well.
M: Yeah.
P: Which relates directly to work that we do for our self-esteem and our well-being to create happiness and to ensure longevity and happiness.
M: Yep. Yes. Yeah, definitely. How about you? How was your week?
P: My week’s been lovely, laugh. The accelerator is off, sorry the pedal is off… the pedal? The foot! What am I going for here, Marie? Laugh!
M: You’re slowing things down.
P: See I’m trying to do a racing car reference and it’s just not working. I should just stick to fashion walking.
M & P: Laughter!
P: The foot is off the accelerator, shall we say, just slightly. So, I’ve had a very [good week] yeah. So, I said to a friend of mine who’s a professor of physiotherapy at Sydney University, ‘Should I be this relaxed?’ Laugh.
And he said, ‘Yeah if you’ve done the work, you should be Ok. I’m like ‘Ok, I’m good.’
M: Until the night before the exams.
P: Well, that’s what I said, ‘Call me next Tuesday.’
M & P: Laugh!
M: So, what are we talking about this week?
P: Ooh, we’re talking about green spaces! Laugh.
M: And loneliness.
P: And loneliness, yes. A new study out by a couple of Australians?
M: Yes. So, Thomas Astell-Burt from the University of Wollongong and Xiaoqi Feng from the University of New South Wales. I apologise if I have mispronounced your name… yet again.
P & M: Laugh!
M: And they’ve just recently released findings from a longitudinal study which was published in the International Journal of Epidemiology, which finds that adults in neighbourhoods were at least 30% of nearby land, was parks, reserves and woodlands had a 26%, so 1 in 4 percent lower odds of becoming lonely compared to their peers in areas of less than 10% green space.
P: This is very in vogue, this kind of investigation and this kind of study in terms of looking at how our liveable cities do better and how they have a social impact.
M: Absolutely, so there are so many different fields of study that are looking at green space. In one of our previous episodes on liveable cities, we looked at green space.
P: Mmm.
M: I think we talked about in Paris there is a big push to put green areas and walking areas along the Seine.
P: Yes.
M: Yes, a lot of big cities are doing it. London is greening a lot of their poorer neighbourhoods.
P: Yes.
M: So, they’re investing in poorer neighbourhoods and again this study was just saying 26% lower odds of becoming lonely compared to peers in areas of less than 10% green space and that 10% green space, that tends to be the slums and your low socio-economic areas of large cities.
P: Yeah, the poverty areas.
M: Yeah, yeah.
P: And we’ve talked about this before, but there was also a similar study done on the links between your health rate on your suburban location in Australia.
M: Yep.
P: And that was an ABC report that we’ve mentioned in a couple of episodes that it depends on which suburb you live in a city which actually comm predetermine your health outcomes and your literacy, your financial situation. Your access to the good things of life, really.
M: Yep, so this is one of those many things and you wouldn’t think just having parks.
P: Ahh, it’s so important.
M: Yep.
P: The built-in environment has actually a huge impact. We’ve actually studied in one of my subjects in this semester, The built-in environment and its impact on health. We don’t realise that the areas in which we live have a huge impact on how we interact, what we do, how were shuffled around in terms of pedestrianisation.
M: Mmm hmm.
M: And not just residential and commercial and industrial, but residential and parkland.
P: Well, it also said there is a place for –
M: Socialising?
P: – commercial and industrial within the landscape, because if you have all residential, then you get too much density. So, the cross section of the area needs to include all elements that includes industrial.
M: Not necessarily industrial. So, I think there’s some really good work that was being done just outside of Washington D.C, where they were putting train stops and then building in your parking, first layer of commercial and then residential and building little zones where you don’t need a car for your area.
P: Mmm.
M: So, you can do everything you need to do day to day within walking distance. And if you have to go somewhere industrial, which in old times meant it would pollute your air, they put those as far away as possible.
P: Mmm.
M: So, they don’t put an airport right next to a residential area for instance. So, there is some industrial nowadays, but you don’t end up with a lot of higher chemicals and air pollution.
P: Yeah, white industrial vs. big plants and things like that.
M: Yes. So, anyway, this study is looking at the intersection of mental health and green spaces and loneliness in particular.
P: Why loneliness, Marie?
M: [dramatic pause] … Because you’ll die!
P & M: Laughter!
P: It’s a bit of a catchphrase now, isn’t it?
M: Laugh.
P: We talk about dying a lot here, laugh.
M: I know, everything makes you die these days.
P & M: Laugh!
M: So, in 2019 the World Economic Forum put out a lot of research and published a lot of research on loneliness. 2019 was loneliness, 2020 was burnout.
P: Mmm.
M: But these lifestyle and health, mental health and lifestyle conditions are becoming increasingly more common across all generations and around the world and across all cultures.
P: I think we’re becoming a little bit more aware of them as well. I think people are, I think people are more inclined to admit that they might feel lonely a little bit more. And we’re more aware that our mental health impacts our physical health. And so, our understanding of the impacts of psychological stress of psychological disorders we understand they’re things to be discussed. Whereas 50 years ago you didn’t discuss them, it was like you have a cup of tea, you get on with life.
M: I think loneliness is one of the last ones that still has such a stigma around it.
P: Mmm.
M: It’s not easy to say I have no friends.
P: Yeah true.
M: Or I want someone to love.
P: Mmm.
M: You know, and to admit that to yourself, let alone other people. And to be quite fair, admitting it to other people can backfire.
P: That’s true.
M: And even worse spiral.
P: Mmm.
M: So, the world economic forum said that 40% – and this, this really got me because whenever I think loneliness, I think of elderly people with mobility issues who live alone.
P: Yep, and you’d be right because that’s a –
M: Big, big, group that are lonely in general, but The World Economic Forum said that 40% of under 25 year-olds report feeling lonely.
P: That’s scary.
M: And to me, that is a sign of our times, because you could be standing in a room full of people, a crowded room and still feel lonely even though you’re not alone.
P: Yes.
M: And a lot of our youth have grown up using phones.
P: Mmm hmm, and they don’t have the social skills.
M: Exactly, yeah. So, there’s a lot of people who aren’t truly connecting, even though they’re standing in that crowded room or crowded Facebook or Instagram, laugh.
P: Yeah, but that’s the thing is that they don’t have the understanding or the know how to strike up a conversation. I remember feeling a little bit like that when I moved to Melbourne from being in the country, the first time I’d really lived in a big city. And I remember talking to some of my friends who were going to university at that time and I was always amazed at how this one guy Robbie, he could talk to anybody. He could just walk into a room and strike up a conversation. I’m like ‘How do you do it?!’
M & P: Laughter.
P: [How do] you have that confidence?
M: So, you went to… You grew up in a small town, didn’t you?
P: Mmm hmm, yeah.
M: I think that is really harmful to kids.
P: Laugh.
M: So, I went to a preschool that fed into a primary school that fed into high school that fed into college.
P: Yep.
M: And then we went to one of two universities in our city, laugh!
P: Yeah. So, you know everyone.
M: Yeah, and the class split [at university]. Whereas when I went overseas, that was the first time I actually had to make friends.
P: Mmm.
M: The first time we didn’t show up and have people – I might not have liked them too much, but I could always hang out with them, right?
P: Laugh.
M: But thankfully I went to a country where I was the novelty. So, the second opened my mouth, I had an accent, and people would go ‘oh, where are you from?’ It’s an opener.
P: It’s an icebreaker.
M: Yep, absolutely. But I’ve always thought that for small town kids it’s tough if you’ve never moved [or] had to start from scratch anywhere.
P: Mmm.
M: And the first time you’re doing that is when you go off to university or in your first job, you miss a lot of the growth that comes from those social interactions.
P: Yeah, yeah, I think there are also other advantages as well as disadvantages sometimes in that you get more social interaction in the country down. Perhaps this is an opportunity of meeting more people in a way, because in the city you cloister, you… Yeah, I can see the pros and cons of both sides.
M: Yeah.
P: Yeah.
M: I think when you’re older, it’s a bit different but when you’re younger. You’ve got your sports group’s and your music groups, school, church.
P: You’re constantly meeting people, definitely.
M: Yeah, definitely. But I do hear what you say when you’re an adult and you moved to a big city.
P: Yeah, and it’s challenging. And being thrown in the deep end is actually one of the best things you can do. You just jump in and go, ‘Right, here I go!’ Laugh.
M: So this study shows that the benefits of having more green area around you are even stronger for people who do live alone. And that’s really important because we’re living in this world of abundance.
P: Mmm hmm.
M: We’re, we’re spoiled, let’s be honest. Really, really honest, in Australia. Yep, you might not be able buy house, but the house that our parents could buy 100 years ago [maybe 200] was a hut on the master’s property, with no running water.
P: Yeah, laugh.
M: So it’s only maybe the last 50 years that homeownership looked the way it did.
P: Hmm.
M: It is changing again now, but we are also finding that a lot more people are living alone and choosing to live alone.
P: Mmm, yes. Yeah. That trend is definitely going up.
M: Yep. My mom wants to live… alone is the wrong word, but wants to be independent and have her own space.
P: Yeah.
M: And, you know, as do many other people. So there are more of us living by ourselves. But if you’re going to live by yourself, then you’ll be less lonely if you have more green space around you. And the reason the researchers think this is the case is that when you go and spend more time in parks and enjoying the outdoors and getting outside of your home, there’s more chances for light interaction but also deep interaction.
P: Mmm, I agree. It’s the cycle path phenomenon again. We know that cycle ways create social and community interaction.
M: Really? I didn’t know this one about cycle ways.
P: Remember when we did the liveable cities episodes?
P: Cycle paths are the new black remember?
M: Yes dear, yes dear.
P & M: Laugh.
P: It is the social aspect of cycle pathways; It creates a sense of community because you see people out on the streets. It’s like driving a convertible, I get this all the time now that I drive a convertible, people think they can talk to you.
M: We’re just going to leave that there. It’s red by the way.
P: It is.
M: Laugh.
P: Well, it’s really funny how people are, they feel like it’s an obligation, or they can have a conversation with you when you’re pulled up with the lights.
M: Laugh!
P: Sometimes not always a pleasant conversation. It’s like, what do you mean you want me to go there’s 16 cars in front of me dude, what do you want!
M: Laugh.
P: You can have these interactions with people because you’ve got an open top and they go ‘oh, I can talk to this person.’ Laugh.
M: It’s a really funny situation though, have you ever looked over and seen someone picking their nose in their car?
P: Totally, yeah.
M: Exactly. We’ve all seen it, right?
P: Laugh!
M: Or singing their heart out with no –
P: Yes! I love it, it’s great!
M: shame, no shame. But if they ever saw anyone watching them, they would stop straight away and feel embarrassed by it.
P: Yes, yes, true.
M: There’s something about having that roof on, that gives you this weird sense of privacy.
P: Laugh.
M: Anyway, we digress. Laugh.
P: The point being that if you’re out and about, you invite interaction whether you want it to or not, it’s there.
M: So, we will make you not be lonely, whether you want it or not!
P: Laugh! We’re enforcing this! I you want to go sit on the park bench bad luck I’m coming and sitting next to you, laugh!
M: Mmm hmm and have a conversation. So, look I thought that was interesting that it had such a huge impact on people who live alone. But there was also a really surprising finding from their study. So, the researchers found that more green space didn’t provide relief from loneliness.
P: Mmm, yeah.
M: So, if you’re already lonely, having more parks around doesn’t change anything.
P: Which goes to say that there’s another intervention that needs to happen there. So, we need to find another source of dealing with that issue rather than just putting parks in place. Parks won’t be enough. They’re good for creating –
M: They’re good for stopping [loneliness].
P: Yeah, they’re not, they’re not going to treat it. For people who are already suffering from loneliness, there needs to be further intervention that level.
M: Yep, one of the other things that we spoke about this year was birds. Do you remember that study?
P: Birds?
M: Have you got worms tonight Pete?
P: I’m trying to get comfortable with this new microphone and it’s hemming me into the couch.
M: Laugh.
P: I’m feeling attacked! Laugh!
M: Sorry we’re having audio issues tonight.
P: Laugh!
M: We’ve invested in super smick – smick?
P: Smick, shit, laugh.
M: Super schmick microphones and Pete’s squirming like a five-year-old who has to eat his peas and carrots.
P & M: Laugh.
P: I don’t like peas and carrots.
M: Anyway.
P: Birds.
M: Remember we spoke about birds.
P: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
M: How diversity in birds increases happiness as well, and I think it’s all interlinked if you’ve got more trees and park space, you know naturally you’ll have more birds.
P: Well, the other factor that comes into when they talk about city design and the built-in environment and how it affects us is walkability.
M: Yes.
P: So, the ability to actually walk somewhere and, not feel threatened for it to be well lit to have a consistent pathway of consistent pedestrianisation on your journey that has huge impacts on how we use the space on that is going to encourage people to get out of their homes and not jump in the car and drive to the mall or drive to the shopping centre.
M: Or drive to work?
P: Or drive to work.
M: This’s where I think America boomed and their cities sprawled.
P: Yes.
M: And they’ve built their cities for big freeways and car travel and kept their gas prices low. To enable everyone to have the dream of a home and a car.
P: Yes.
M: Right? And I think we know that London and Paris and Rome have infrastructure issues because they’re just such old, old cities.
P: Yeah. They weren’t designed that way.
M: It’s hard to put lifts in for people with physical disabilities when you’re underground is Swiss cheese and it might cause things to collapse.
P: Laugh.
M: Or all the buildings are heritage listed and the stairs are not only uneven but they’re warn down in the middle and all the rest, you know all of that stuff. But I think where America is really going to struggle is that they were built on that promise of being able to drive your car.
P: So, the accessibility of the city is not necessarily –
M: The walkability is not there.
P: Yeah, definitely.
M: In Canberra, which is one of the few or two I think fully designed cities. There’s another one [Brasilia] in South America somewhere that we have spoken about. But they designed local shops and then a suburb of residential area around it and then another local shops with residential around it. So that everyone could walk to the shops.
P: Mmm.
M: And the shops always had a kid’s playground next to it, and you know, it was designed as that being the middle of the residential hub, I guess it was the hub. But in the States, it wasn’t and that sprawl means that even if you just want to go from a butcher to the baker, it could be kilometres difference.
P: Yep, absolutely.
M: So that’s a real challenge, I think.
P: It is especially for our vulnerable populations such as children and elderly. They haven’t got the, you know, the children don’t have necessarily the access to transport. The elderly aren’t able to be mobile enough to get access to the transport.
M: Mmm hmm.
P: So, they are left on the fringes. Yeah, you know, my mom only goes shopping once every fortnight, and she waits until that once a fortnight, partly because of that’s just the way that she likes to go.
M: Yep. And I think, unfortunately, technology has made it easy so that you don’t have to go to the bank can do it all from home.
P: Mmm.
M: But that means you’re not getting out.
P: You’re not interacting with people anymore; You’re interacting with technology.
M: Tech, yep. Or as we’ve all found through covid we’re interacting, but not in ways that are forming deep relationships.
P: Yes, the importance of touch.
M: Laugh, don’t go touching your banker!
P: Laugh!
M: But as we’ve mentioned before those small interactions even with your coffee guy.
P: Yep, vital. Yeah. I still miss my coffee, man. Alex, where are you? You’ve left me.
M: Laugh. And we’ll need to wrap up but I just want to say that Melbourne’s gone into lock down yet again.
P: Oh, so awful… Are people trying to escape?
M: It was crappy the first time, crappy the second time, third time like ‘come on!’, fourth time everyone’s kind of just over being positive.
P: It’s about building that resilience though.
M: It’s tough, It is really tough. And you know Sydney, it’ll happen again for us I’m sure and other cities and countries around the world haven’t come out [of lockdown].
P: Yeah, exactly.
M: So, one of the best things that has been shown to increase resilience and mental health in the pandemic is to go for a walk in nature. So, if you’ve got your parks and you’re allowed to, based on your lock down laws and a lot of countries let you do some exercise, it is one of the easiest things you can do.
P: Can I say it? Can I say it?
M: Do it! Laugh.
P: Forest Bathing! It’s a real thing!
M & P: Laughter!
M: If you have a forest near you or it’s within a kilometre area that you’re allowed to. Otherwise, a local park will do.
P & M: Laugh.
P: Two hours people, go and get two hours in nature. It’s good for your immune function. It’s good for your mental health, it’s good for everything. It’s good for your stress management.
M: All of it.
P: Yep.
M: All of the above.
P: Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick!
M: Yes, and it is good for your loneliness.
P: Mmm.
M: And on that note, we’ll finish up.
P: Have a happy week.
[Happy exit music – background]
M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more, please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.
P: And if you like our little show, we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.
M: Until next time.
M & P: Choose happiness.
[Exit music fadeout]
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