Happiness for Cynics podcast
This week, Marie and Pete discuss research about the importance of friendships and the controversial idea that friends are better than family.
Transcript
M: You’re listening to the podcast Happiness for Cynics. I’m Marie Skelton, a writer and speaker on change and resilience.
P: And I’m Peter Furness, Snapshot collector, positivity, genuflector and prodigy protector. Each week we will bring to you the latest news and research in the world of positive psychology otherwise known as happiness.
M: So if you’re feeling low.
P: Or if you’re only satisfied with life but not trully happy with it.
M: Or maybe you just want more!
P: Then this is the place to be.
M: And to take you one step further this weeks episode is all about social connections and whether friends beat family.
P: Ooh, it’s Family Feud!
[Happy Intro Music]
P: So Marie, family versus friends. Here we go.
M: Yeah! It is on, it is on!
P: Oh, I could see the knives coming out now.
[Laughter]
M: All right, so a few weeks ago, a new study came out by Hudson, Lucas, Donnellan called ‘Are we happier with others? An investigation of the links between spending time with others and subjective well being.’ And it was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
P: From Michigan State University?
M: And S.M.U. Yes.
P: S.M.U. What’s S.M.U.?
M: Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas. Anyway. So they studied 400 participants, and the participants were asked to think back on times with their friends or family and identify the activities they shared and rate whether those experiences left them feeling various emotions like happy, sad, satisfied and with a sense of meaning.
So they had a scale from almost never to always and the information covered how people felt at different times and allowed the researchers to estimate rates of happiness, so subjective well-being with their friends and family relationships.
P: Hhmm..
M: And [singing] bum, bum, buummm..
P: [Laugh]
M: Drumroll!
P: [Laugh]
M: All the research finds that family suck. And…
[Laughter]
M: Okay, I won’t put words in their mouths.
P: [He he]
M: I’m taking a bit of poetic license here. The research found that people report higher levels of subjective well-being, [so] happiness while hanging out with their friends than they do with their romantic partner or children.
P: So what we’re saying is that we prefer being with our friends than with our family. I’m not sure if I agree with that. My family’s pretty rock awesome.
M: Think about all the high divorce rates.
P: Ooh, yes.
M: Partners can be really annoying.
[Laughter]
M: They fart in bed, they leave their toenail clippings everywhere.
P: [Laugh] But is that just a comfort level thing? I mean, when we’re talking with our partners and our family there’s a certain amount of license, it is extended. Does that same licence exist with your close friendships. I’m thinking of you here Muz, and we have a pretty big licence?
M: You do not cut your toenails and you don’t leave your socks all over my house.
P: [Laugh] No, I leave my watch on your bedside table and your husband doesn’t wonder whose gentleman’s watch is on the bedside table for a week.
M: Actually, there’s a lot of trust there, isn’t there Pete?
P: [Laugh]
M: He comes home and sees another man’s watch on his side of the bed and doesn’t even question it.
P: [Laugh] He just goes ‘Oh, yeah.’
M: Look I think that, I think this says a lot for all these single people out there and for all these preconceived ideas that marriage is what’s expected and should happen and that you should shack up and have kids and have a family, I think what this is telling me is that maybe we need to look at that and the social constructs and the way that our world thinks and maybe poke it a little, see if it really is holding up.
P: I find that interesting because I am a single man and I have made a very conscious decision a few years ago that my friends were my family. Now I have a pretty amazing family, and when we do catch up, it’s a riot. It’s great fun. There’s a lot of support and interestingly enough in our family chat today, very timely. A member, I can’t say family names, can I? That’s going to be really bad. So someone putting the family chat ‘Oh my God, grandma just stuffed up my career, blah, blah, blah… and something that happened in the nail salon and, you know, small towns and people saying things and things got around and it was funny that the entire family bandied around this person and just basically said ‘No, that’s shit, that’s crap. You’re amazing, you’re all good.’
M: I take it Nan’s not on the chat?
P: [Laugh] Yeah, Grandma’s not on the chat, she’s a technophobe.
M: Poor Grandma.
P: Poor Grandma, she cops it on this podcast, I swear if she ever listens to it she’s going to slap me on the back of the head.
[Laughter]
P: I think the point is that there was a rallying. There was an instant rallying, and I made the comment, ‘it’s great to have your fan club behind you’.
M: Mmm, Hhmm.
P: But I think that’s the nature of the family connection is that you can trust that you can come out and you can say some things that maybe on appropriate and they’re a bit off the wall and be emotional and that the family forgives that, sees it for what it is and throws some support behind you because you need it and then might bring you back and go ‘Oh, have you thought about it this way?’ So there’s a little bit of relativity in there. Do friendships, close friendships have that same amount of freedom?
M: I would say in a good family, there’s a lot of crappy families.
P: Oh yeah, I realise I’m very lucky.
M: Yeah and I’d say, having, having lived overseas and moved around a lot, I’m like you, my friends, apart from my husband, obviously, but my friends very much are my family and my support and my cheerleaders and all that stuff that you rely on your family in this group chat you talked about for. I get a lot of that from my friends.
P: Definitely.
M: Yeah, so anyway let’s, let’s keep going. There is a twist.
P: Ooh, Oh, there’s a sidebar.
M: So the findings. So I was holding something back, Pete. So the findings, actually show that family isn’t all that bad. It has more to do with the activity than the person it is shared with.
P: Oh.
M: Unfortunately people tend to spend more time doing enjoyable activities with friends than they do with family members. So you do a lot more cleaning and chores with your family than you do with friends.
P: Aah, righto. Okay.
M: So when the researchers, statistically controlled for activities, the mere presence of children, romantic partners and friends predicted similar levels of happiness. So the real lesson here is that people increase your subjective well-being, so they make you happier.
P: I was looking forward to a reality TV spin off here, you know, having two opposing camps and one person in the middle going ‘no, I want to go over here. Now I want to go over here. I want to go over here now.’
M: [Laugh]
P: Now you’ve just made it boring.
M: Yeah, yeah. Now it makes sense.
[Laughter]
M: We are in the 21st century of questionable media and questionable facts so we could have just stopped our episode two minutes ago and then left it at that.
P: [Laugh] Very true. Hanging the fish out to dry as it were.
I’ve found it interesting that Michigan State University is involved in is because there’s been a coup[le], when we were looking at the research for this, there’s a couple of studies that actually talk about this friends versus family aspect. William Chopik was the researcher in 2017 who published a study with 280,000 participants.
M: 280,000?!
P: Yeah. Much bigger. I think that this laid the groundwork for yours for the subsequent study that we mentioned at the beginning of the episode and what Chopik found was that friendships predict a day today happiness more and ultimately how long we’ll live more so than certain spousal and family relationships. So this is talking about our longevity and what friendships actually bring to our state of mind and all those things that we have mentioned before in terms of longevity, of being supportive and having the people you can have those the vault conversations with.
M: Mm, hmm. The ones that you call at two am when you’re in jail.
P: [Laugh]
M: That’s my test.
P: Hang on, how many times have you been in jail Marie?
M: I havn’t, but if I did.
[Laughter]
M: Do I have enough people I could call?
P: That’s actually probably a good exercise to do. That’s like, that’s one of the questions we should put on the questionnaire. Who would you call at 2am if you were in jail? Tthat might give you an indication of who your close friends actually are.
[Laughter]
P: Sidebar, later for tips and hints.
M: Tips and Hints: Do not go to jail.
[Laughter]
P: So to continue further with Chopik’s work, he does talk about family relationships being as enjoyable as friendships. But he does clock that sometimes the family relationships involve serious negative and monotonous interactions. And I think this is in support of what you were saying Marie, is that we do the cleaning, we do the cooking, we go to the taxation office together with our family or our spouses as opposed to going for a picnic with our friends and having the high times of having the fun times. You know, do your friends change your children’s nappy. Maybe they do.
M: That’s a good friend.
P: Maybe that’s sharing that.
[Laughter]
M: So actually back to that first study, the percentage they looked at the percentage of activities, and they found that 65% of experiences with friends involved socialising. But only 28% of time shared with partners involved socializing. So, you’re spot on there.
P: Yes.
M: That’s about 50% less time spent doing the fun stuff.
P: So is it a matter of maybe scheduling the fun stuff with the family?
M: Absolutely, Absolutely. So it’s about being a bit more aware of that. And I would even argue old school. I had a father who went to work and who was the man of the house, and we spent very little time socialising with Dad.
P: Yeah.
M: You had meals together where you were told to be quiet, you know.
P: Yeah.
M: Like it was. It was a traditional kind of not, not as modern now, but traditional male dominated household. Ah, where kids were meant to be seen, not heard.
P: Not heard, yes.
M: Yeah, yeah, you know, it’s a bit of a shame that I think back to our episode last week on play that we don’t play more with the kids, and we don’t schedule that in.
P: Yes, I agree. I think that that’s the real key here is scheduling the fun times to do with the family and those, you know the monotonous times are going to happen, but make sure that you have the upswing of that and do things like playing in the park or going on bike rides or going to the Universal Studios together or something kike that.
M: Oof, that’s a good one.
P: [Laugh]
M: Every weekend, Universal Studios for me.
P: [Laugh]
M: Or Disney, I’ll take Disney.
P: [Laugh] Very true.
M: Oh, another really great study that was recently published by Interflora.
P: As is the flower shop?
M: Yes.
P: Really. We’re quoting Interflora.
M: We’re not quoting Interflora, but Interflora funded the study, which obviously deals with friendships and send flowers to than friends, so the Interflora and the expert for… who wrote, sorry. So the author from ‘The Friendship Cure’, Kate Leaver. So they did a study involving 2000 Brits, and they found that you need five friends in our friendship group to be happy.
P: Five friends to be happy?
M: Mm, hmm.
P: Ok, so you can have seven friends but five of them need to be happy. So you have two miserable ones?
M: No, if you want to be happy you need five friends.
P: Oh, ok.
M: What you were saying about needing friends and the importance of that for longevity and, and all the rest of it. You don’t need one and you don’t need 50. You need five. So one is too little. It’s the Goldie Locks amount.
[Laughter]
M: For ultimate happiness.
P: Ok. So we need five friends.
M: Five friends. But, there’s always a but, right?
P: A caveat.
M: We need a mix of personality traits.
P: Okay.
M: Your friendship group should be comprised of five different personalities to really make it work.
The Sensible one
P: Sorry, I’m just getting an image of the Spice Girls here.
M: [Laugh] Ok. So to make your girl band a sensible one. That is not your me, by the way. We need:
The Organiser
I think that’s you and me.
P: I gave up being the organiser three years ago when I left the presidency of the volleyball club.
M: [Laugh] There’s:
The Joker
P: Ok, yep.
M: There’s:
The Party Animal
P: [Laugh]
M: And this one’s you,
The Dramatic One
P: Oh! How rude. [Mock outrage]
M: [Laugh]
P: Oh, my goodness. I’m walking out! Bye! If I could do the sound of storming out of a room that would be playing right now, I am not dramatic, how dare you. [Laugh]
M: Yes, point proven. So they say that those five personalities are ideal and give you good balance. But, there’s always more buts, always more. It is better to be part of two different groups for real happiness.
P: Oh.
M: And for better friends you need to argue at least twice a year.
P: Oh, that’s dangerous. Oh dear, oh dear. Does this include dropping off key FOBs in the wrong mailbox?
[Laughter]
M: We’re not talking about that.
P: Oh, go on. Tell our listener’s Marie, go on, tell them. [Laugh] I’m going to tell a story here. So you know, we’re trying to coordinate between being in Tamworth and being in Sydney, and somebody may have borrowed the key fob to the apartment and then the instruction was so leave it in the mail box. But specific, the specificity of the mailbox wasn’t mentioned, so someone dropped the key fob.
M: Because I have three…
P: Well I know but this is what I’m saying, someone dropped it in the wrong mailbox, and it required a very snappy conversation over the phone and I was about to go on a volleyball court. This’s good though, this is, I agree. I agree that good friendships should argue because they that argument brings you closer and it brings about trust, and it brings about that ‘remember when you bit my head off because I did this?’ And we’re still friends because of that, and I actually think that that forms a really true bond because, let’s face it, the best relationships aren’t lovey dovey 100% of the time.
M: Yep. We’re all human.
P: Yep and you need someone to call you on your bullshit when you’re doing something crazy.
M: Yeah, when you’re doing something wrong. But you also need someone who will forgive you when you behave a little poorly.
P: Yes.
M: Not, not consistently poorly and not abusively. But when you behave poorly every now and then as all humans do, someone who’ll forgive you.
P: Yes, it’s really impactive when it does happen. And I’m being an emotional person and being a drama personality apparently.
[Laughter]
P: When a friend calls me out on an activity that actually had a deep impact on me has a physical impact, so that actually, it’s a lever, it’s a lever to make you rethink cause you go ‘oh, next time I’m not going to do it that way, I’m going to change.’ So it’s a lesson learned, and that advances you. And it does bring about more happiness because you’re making conscious decisions and reinforcing actions have bring about a positive benefit and positive influence.
M: Absolutely. So before we leave, maybe we need to have some tips, so there is research on how to make friends. If you don’t have five good friends, we’ll start with the friends, maybe.
P: Well five good friends but also five good friends in two different girl bands.
M: [Laugh]
P: So, it’s not enough to be a Spice Girl, you need to be a Spice Girl and a Destiny’s Child.
M: [Laugh] Yep, I was going to go with Take.. Take That? Take 5? New Kids on the Block? No hang on…
P: 80’s pop bands, we’re showing our age here, Muz. I was going to go with Disney, but I’m not sure that’s culturally relevant.
M: OK, so we’ll wrap up with just a really quick overview of just the latest research in making friends as adults, which we all know is nowhere near as easy as it was when we were at school to make friends and to make friends fast. And the reason that is, is Jeffrey Hall from the University of Kansas has done a whole lot of research on making friends, and he says it takes about 50 hours to go from acquaintance to casual friend and about another 90 hours on top of that to move to friend’s status, and then an additional 200 hours to become close friends.
P: Wow.
M: So that means you’re investing 340 hours into a friendship before you reach close friend status.
P: I’d agree with that.
M: So you’re -absolutely- and there’s a lot of awkward, weird first date kind of stuff with weird people out there.
P: [Laugh]
M: They’re everywhere. People that you don’t gel with.
P: Like when they start wearing unicorn t-shirts
M: [Laugh] So, we are out of time, but there’s three things you can do that will help to build friendships over time. So, firstly, joining a class, so painting, pottery… It gives you a chance to see people on a weekly basis, and once you suss out the people that you might want to be friends with and get closer to them, you’ve got a reason for seeing them over time and building that friendship. Same thing goes for volunteering, so you know you’ve got to make a commitment and go back regularly, but again, you’re there to do the volunteering and the friendship building almost become secondary. And then, lastly, joining a sports team, which Pete is kind of how I think we got to be a lot closer and bonded faster.
P: Yeh absolutely, and spend those formative times together and hours upon hours in a car driving to a tournament somewhere. It creates conversation.
M: Yeah, and bonds you faster. So we hit that to 340 level a lot faster than if we hadn’t played volleyball together. So we’ve spent hours every week, week in, week out, year after year together and as a result, had a much deeper bond than maybe someone you go for a drink with at the pub once a month.
P: That’s why I agree with you, and that’s what’s interesting to see the breakdown from Hall’s research about the 90 hours and the 200 hours… makes sense. So forming a bond over a common interest such as a sports team or volunteering is a really good way to rack up those hours. And when you look at it as an hourly commitment, then yeah, something that’s got a common interest that makes you spend three hours a day together, creates friendships.
M: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on that note, we might wrap up. So the moral of story is friends are important. They may I not be better than family, but you still do need a core group of friends that you can call from jail.
P: Thanks for joining us today. If you’d like to hear more, please remember to subscribe and like the podcast on member, you can find us at www.MarieSkelton.com, where you can find out about balanced happiness and resilience in your life where you can also post questions or propose a topic.
M: And if you like, a little show would absolutely love you, leave a comment or rating to help us out.
P: That would make us jump with happiness and do little pirouettes in the middle of the kitchen.
M: Well, Pete would.
[Laughter]
M: Until next time.
P: Choose happiness.
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When I originally commented I clicked the -Notify me when new feedback are added- checkbox and now every time a comment is added I get four emails with the same comment. Is there any method you may take away me from that service? Thanks!
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