Happiness for Cynics podcast – episode 5
Today we’re talking about flow, a concept made famous by one of the pioneers of positive psychology Mihály Csíkszentmihályi. Flow is about being truly engaged in the moment. Being in a state of flow means you’re completely focused on the task at hand, so happy in the moment that you forget yourself and the world around you.
Want more on flow? Check out our article on What is a State of Flow and How to Find it or download our infographic on finding flow.
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Transcription
M: You’re listening to the podcast happiness for cynics. I’m Marie Skelton, a writer and change and transformation expert, and my co-host is Peter Furness.
P: Hi there I’m Peter Furness Remedial Therapist, ex-performer and happiness junky. We aim to bring you the best in research and personal experience in topics that generate that state of happiness, which we all want to get more of. The 101 of how to get happy. Marie, you have the links to all this info on your website? Yes?
M: Yes. So you can find me at marieskelton.com and that’s a site about major life changes and transitions and how to cope with them. And the site uses a lot of the same research we talk about here on the podcast and has some really practical tips for bringing joy and happiness into your life. You can also find me on Twitter. My handle is @MarieSkelton. So on today’s episode, which is all about flow.
[Happy music]
M: Today we’re talking about flow, a concept made famous by one of the pioneers of positive psychology.
P: Here we go Muz, come on we know you can do this. [laugh]
M: A guy who happens to have 16 letters in his last name. So please forgive me if I miss-pronounce this Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
P: Oh well done Muz
[Laughter]
P: I’m not sure what nationality he is. He’s Jewish isn’t he?
M: He is and unfortunately… like so many others. Viktor Frankl would be another so many others who experienced the atrocities off the Second World War and the camps. A lot of people came out of that experience with a lot of questions about life, the meaning of life and happiness and, you know, why we’re here. So he is definitely one of the pioneers of the positive psychology field or movement, if you want to call it that. And he coined the term flow, and that’s what we’re talking about today.
P: What is Flow? We have a definition here.
One of the quotes from Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is ‘The best moments in our lives and not the passive, receptive, relaxing times. The best moments usually occur if a person’s body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile.’
P: I think this is talking about that moment where you are so obsessed with a project or a performance or an article that you are in that lovely little zone that we all talk about where everything around you is extraneous and you’re not even thinking about your own personal life or anything like that.
It’s all about the task at hand.
M: To take it further it could be something actually quite mundane, but it’s about that moment when you lose time, right?
P: Yeah, there’s a couple of points in here where people talk about what/how to achieve a state of flow and of them is that you actually lose track of time, so I’ll get to the others here:
When you’re in a state of flow, you are completely focused on the task at hand; You forget about yourself, about others and about the world around you; You lose track of time; You feel happy and in control; and you are creative in the productive moment.
P: I particularly like that last one
M: [Laugh]
P: I feel like I have a particular authority on this one, being an ex-performance artist because that state of flow that state of complete obsession, where you are completely in that little shimmering moment it’s kind of the focus of the performing artist. It’s what you train for so that you don’t have to think about putting your foot in a certain position or holding the violin in that certain way. That’s all trained into you. You practise so much so that when we come to perform, you completely immerse yourself in that performance and you go with the flow.
M: Yeah, I don’t agree with you there Pete
P: Oh excellent! I like it when we don’t agree, this is where we get good.
[Laughter]
M: Absolutely and being an ex-athlete, I completely understand. With training so that your body remembers without you having to put thought and effort into remembering. So I get that, the moment as an athlete where you’re on and everything is working and it flows. I get that, for me flow as Mihaly talks about it in the positive psychology arena is completely separate from necessarily being a creative or sporting endeavour and the best moments of flow for me have been at work, and I think that everyone around the world can achieve flow and get the satisfaction that that rings.
P: Yes
M: And it’s not just for the elite few who are dancers, performers, athletes, et cetera. It’s something that people should be striving to bring into their lives in general because it comes with so many benefits. So, like last week when we spoke about awe bringing benefits, the science behind this one is again, like with awe and like with the default mode network or DMN that we spoke about when your mind’s on autopilot, we spend most of our time in that space, whereas flow brings you out of that space just like a awe does, and so does meditation for some people. It brings you out of that space into a less ego-centric space. And there’s some real positive benefits to your sense of satisfaction with life that come from that.
P: Definitely, I could definitely support that and I don’t mean to say that you have to be an elite athlete or anything to experience that level of flow and just to qualify what I said in terms of capturing that it doesn’t always happen in performance. And I guess for me because my dancing was my work, that was my work. So it’s exactly the same I achieved in work, but it didn’t always happen on stage sometimes it happened in class. As a dancer you walk into the studio, the first hour of your dance day is spent doing as a contemporary or classical dancer you do class every day. And it’s incredibly indulgent way to start the morning because it’s all about you. You walk into that space and the teacher or ballet mistress or whoever it is that’s taking the class, starts an exercise and you lock in and off you go and that could be [laugh] a slight negative because having that attitude being all about you. “Don’t talk to me before I go to class!”, so I would get there 45 minutes before class and do my little warm up and people are coming in, and it’s like “No, I’m in the corner you don’t come near me’, particularly in a small group of people. There’s about seven people in this company. And you don’t come in and start chatting straightaway, I would have my earphones on and be in downward dog or whatever I chose to do and you don’t come near me. And then that carries through into the class a little bit, where we’re standing next to each other and sweating. No talking. This is my class. This is all about me.
[Laughter]
P: So that aside again it brings into play the focus. So where you sharpen that focus and you exclude the outside world. It brings you into that state where flow can happen, and I have had experiences in the past where you do, you come out of a class and it’s just a normal class it’s something you do every day but you’re like “OMG that was amazing!” and then you think there’s no way I can reproduce that, I can’t reproduce that, or I hope I get to reproduce that and that’s an interesting subtext in there about this concept of flow is how do you hang onto it you and in a way like everything Zen you can’t hold onto it you’ve just got to try to aim for it again.
M: I think the research shows you can create the environment that enables you to find it.
P: Yeah, you can create the environment but you’re not guaranteed on finding it each time. And that’s where the discipline comes of trying to tap in to/creating that environment where the flow can happen. But it might happen today. It might not happen tomorrow. You can’t want that and go “well I’ve got the environment ready why isn’t it happening, come on this is supposed to happen now. You can’t necessarily predict that, or expect that to be… again expectation come into it, expect that to be the result.
M: Yep and I think the way that the workplace has changed in the way that society and the world is changing with, you know the pinging of our social media and our phones and open office plans where people can walk past even if they’re not actually coming up and talking to you, in an office they can walk past and they’re in your peripheral. And so your ability to have a few hours of uninterrupted thinking time where you put your brain to solving a problem or two, doing work is, it’s so much harder to find that nowadays –
P: – in a corporate environment
M: in a corporate environment but also at home, if you’ve got kids, you’ve got your phone on, there’s so much technology and so many demands on our time right now. And I think you nailed it when you’re talking about your mornings and telling everyone to leave you the f – alone.
[Laughter]
M: It’s one of the key things that you need to do to find flow.
It is: Stop the distractions. Right?
So it is definitely a moment for you, with you.
P: Yes, I like that. For you, with you.
M: Yeah, that you need to protect in order to ever get anywhere near that and for me I find writing, I can definitely find flow, and I’ll look up and the suns set. [Laugh]
P: Oh yeah.
M: and ‘Oh, where did the day go’ [Laugh] and I’ve been really lucky recently to have some time out of the corporate world to explore other projects, and I’ve been finding flow left, right and centre. I’d like to call them rabbit holes normally.
[Laughter]
M: I’ve been learning/just recently watched a blog as you know we mentioned the beginning of the show and I’ve been learning about search engine optimisation and about security of my site and the information there and Ecommerce, and I can find that I’ll go down that rabbit hole and be learning and applying this information and again I’ll look up and 10 hours later, I forgot to have lunch and I’m really busting to go to the loo [Laugh] you know, where did the day go? I think that it comes from me having an environment here at home where I’m working where, you know, apart from my cat who will vomit (in previous episodes as well), I have a calm environment, where I can sit on my balcony, feel the sun and not be interrupted for hours and hours on end.
P: And as you say it’s easy when you can create the environment to do that. It is harder to achieve that status flow when you are in a communal environment for example. However, I think sometimes it’s easy to access it if you can control certain elements. I remember when I was writing my major essay for my degree, I actually went into cafes to write. It was the thing I had to write about had to do with café culture, so I was actually sitting in cafes and writing essays. But that controlling mechanism was to have earphones on, have music playing, and it doesn’t have to be Mozart or these things that everyone say about taping into the creative it can just be a drone, but that drone can create a sound barrier which sharpens the focus. The other thing is coffee.
[Laughter]
P: If I can have a coffee in front of me, it was like right I’m engaged and I am engaged in the activity at hand and it brings me into that focus and I could go for about an hour, hour and a half just with that moment. And the owners of the café were probably thinking ‘Is he going to order anything? Get out of the way, we’ve got lunch service coming up.’
[Laughter]
P: I think if you could control certain elements of the environment, you can harness that flow and like any good activity you form a habit. The more you do it, the more you can take control of certain elements the more you can pull yourself into that space where flow can happen.
M: Yeah, absolutely. There’s a great app, just a circle back with what you’re saying. There’s great app called Coffitivity, which a lot of writers probably already know. Rather than playing Mozart the app plays indistinct coffee shop noises. So there’s a murmur of voices, but you can never quite work out what they’re saying. You can’t actually wrap your head around a word. There’s people talking and there’s coffee cups chinking –
P: – It’s like that scene out of Madagascar “Someone left the ambiance on!” and they turn it off and it’s just the sound of NY City in the background.
M: [Laugh]
P: So why flow? Why have flow?
M: Why have flow. You know it was like as I was saying before it’s, it’s like awe and meditation. It gets you out of that autopilot part of our brain and into using and engaging, the key word there is engaging, with the world in a really deep way.
So, apart from the satisfaction of spending time on a task and completing a task, it also increases your productivity. So we all know whether we believe it or not, or whether we follow it or not. But if your phones constantly pinging and you’ve got people saying, Mom, what’s for dinner and phone rings and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Whatever it is that you’re doing is constantly being interrupted is not going to be the most efficient use of your time. Your productivity won’t be at its peak because of those interruptions, so flow optimises your productivity and from that you get a huge amount of satisfaction, so it reduces stress, you enjoy yourself more when you’re lost in that task, you get things done obviously, and you achieve things.
P: I’m going to jump in there with a slightly different take on that. Some of the research that I’ve been reading from people like Nelson and Rawlings from the Oxford Academic journal, University of Maryland. They talk about floating a very Zen concept. So bringing Zen concept of mindfulness into play. It’s about harnessing your immediate focus and training yourself to be perfectly in the moment, sharpening your mind and your focus to rid yourself of extraneous thought and basically filtering out the noise. I can see you formulating an idea here Marie and I can see we are going to disagree again, I love it!
[Laughter]
M: I got nothing.
P: WeII, It’s funny because these guys also talk about Zen practice is taking the rational and intellectual mind out of the mental loop. So that’s why you [disagree] because you’re so rational and intellectual. [Laugh]
M: No, no, no, I fully agree with mindfulness. I just don’t think that it’s tied to flow.
P: Interesting.
M: I do not practise mindfulness. I find personally, and not that I don’t think that it has benefits. I just haven’t ever gone there. There’s limited time and too many things to do as we’ll discover when we get to Episode 557 of happiness.
[Laughter]
M: There’s so much that you can do in your life, and you do have to make choices for me my mindfulness comes from exercise in the gym and I get the mental resilience and mental peace and Zen centring from hard exercise.
P: There’s loads of schools of thought supporting, so we’ll look into that.
M: And that’s me and if I didn’t do exercise or couldn’t do exercise or didn’t want to do exercise maybe I’d try and find that mental centring from meditation or any of that kind of thing. So mindfulness and being mindful in the moment and being focused. Absolutely, I agree with. Meditation. Haven’t, haven’t gone down that route and I guess to circle back to your original statement, I find flow often and regularly when I can just tackle a difficult task that I know I can do. So it can’t be too difficult where I’m overwhelmed with and give up, but something where I can tackle a difficult task and do it.
P: Yeah, and that taps into another quote by Csikszentmihalyi regarding flow and its, I like this, ‘when your skill level and the challenge at hand are at an equal level.’
And I think that that is something that everyone can tap into
M: So there’s one other thing that I do want to mention and it’s the idea with flow of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation and Mihaly again talks about, about this. So there’s a great book out there [a] couple years old now called ‘Drive’ by Daniel H. Pink. He talks about motivation and motivation one point o [1.0] was: me hungry, me eat, you know, cave man; drive two point o [2.0], which is very much how a lot of corporate is still set up is: I will pay you, you will do things.
P: [Laugh] Yep
M: You will want to do things, right? Your motivation is tied to, you know, or Pavlov’s dog, I’ll give you food so you’ll go do stuff. What Dan argues in his book is that we’re far more complex beings than that.
P: [Laugh]
M: There isn’t such a one on one relationship with motivation and drive and flow is a great example. I’m not getting paid for my blog at the moment. You know, I’m very excited that there’s people out there who want to read it and not just my mom.
P: [Laugh]
M: But I have great satisfaction and find flow often in writing and researching those articles, and it’s an intrinsic motivation that is driving me to do that. It is not the possibility of being paid for it because that doesn’t exist right now. And so there’s an intrinsic part of this flow you’ve got to want to dive into the task your performing.
P: You have to be invested –
M: – personally, and it can’t be others that are telling you to do it. So the second you lose your love for dance you’re not going to find your flow.
P: Exactly. Yeah definitely.
M: You’re not going to be productive and happy all of a sudden in your job. If you hate your job and you’re only there because it gives you a wage.
P: Yeah, absolutely. I see that all the time actually.
M: Yep. Absolutely. All right. We’re running low on time, so we should probably wrap up. But I’d be really interested in hearing from our audience on this one. What do you think, Pete?
P: How to harness flow. How do we do it? When have you achieved it? And How? Have a think about it.
M: Write into the podcast and we will have a read, maybe next week of anything that’s come in. And I’d love to hear what it is that you’ve done over the next week and let us know what you did, whether you found flow. You know, maybe you shipped your kids off to the neighbours, told your husband to go out for beers or something. And what did you do? Was it cooking? Was it writing? How did you find flow in your day to day life? Let us know.
P: Nice, we’d love to hear from you.
M: All right. Well, that’s all we have time for today, as always thanks for joining us. If you want any more, please remember to subscribe and like this podcast, we’ll see you next week.
P: See you next week, bye.
Meet besties Marie and Pete
Marie Skelton is an Australian writer, speaker, and change and resiliency expert. She started her career in journalism before working in public affairs and then specialising in organisational and culture change for some of the world’s largest tech and financial services companies, both in Australia and the U.S. She also played volleyball for Australia and on scholarship at a D1 university in the U.S. and she captained the NSW Women’s Volleyball team in the Australian Volleyball League.
Following a motorbike accident that nearly took her life, and leg, she began researching change and resiliency to find out how people cope with major life changes and why some people are really good at dealing with whatever life throws at them, while others struggle. She is passionate about mental health and writes about how to cope with today’s Change Storm and maintain mental wellness.
Peter Furness is just plain awesome. He loves unicorns and champagne. Pete is the owner of Max Remedial, and a qualified remedial therapist and has worked all over the world with professional athletes, dancers, sporting organisations and medical professionals. Peter’s practice is influenced by his interest in Eastern philosophy and he works closely with Chinese and Ayurvedic practitioners, approaching the body from the principles of ancient medicine.
Peter has practiced Asstanga Yoga for 20 years and combines these principles with his approach to health.
Peter was also an award-winning contemporary dancer in Australia and in the UK.
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Thanks for the a new challenge you have revealed in your short article. One thing I’d prefer to reply to is that FSBO relationships are built with time. By releasing yourself to owners the first saturday their FSBO will be announced, prior to masses start out calling on Friday, you produce a good link. By sending them equipment, educational supplies, free records, and forms, you become a good ally. By taking a personal interest in them along with their problem, you make a solid link that, on many occasions, pays off in the event the owners decide to go with a real estate agent they know as well as trust — preferably you.
I discovered more new stuff on this weight loss issue. A single issue is a good nutrition is extremely vital when dieting. An enormous reduction in bad foods, sugary food items, fried foods, sweet foods, red meat, and whitened flour products may be necessary. Possessing wastes parasitic organisms, and toxic compounds may prevent ambitions for fat-loss. While selected drugs briefly solve the situation, the unpleasant side effects are usually not worth it, and they never give more than a short-term solution. This can be a known incontrovertible fact that 95 of dietary fads fail. Many thanks for sharing your ideas on this site.
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One thing is one of the most popular incentives for utilizing your cards is a cash-back or even rebate offer. Generally, you will get 1-5 back upon various expenditures. Depending on the cards, you may get 1 returning on most expenditures, and 5 in return on buying made using convenience stores, gasoline stations, grocery stores in addition to ‘member merchants’.
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Thanks for your strategies. One thing we’ve noticed is banks along with financial institutions know the dimensions and spending practices of consumers and as well understand that a lot of people max out their own credit cards around the holiday seasons. They properly take advantage of this fact and start flooding your inbox and also snail-mail box using hundreds of Zero APR card offers soon after the holiday season concludes. Knowing that should you be like 98 of all American open public, you’ll jump at the possiblity to consolidate personal credit card debt and move balances towards 0 rate credit cards.
Thanks for your posting. One other thing is always that individual states in the United states of america have their very own laws in which affect house owners, which makes it quite hard for the the nation’s lawmakers to come up with a whole new set of rules concerning property foreclosures on people. The problem is that every state provides own regulations which may have impact in an unfavorable manner when it comes to foreclosure plans.
Many thanks to you for sharing most of these wonderful content. In addition, the ideal travel and also medical insurance system can often eradicate those problems that come with visiting abroad. Some sort of medical crisis can rapidly become too expensive and that’s certain to quickly impose a financial problem on the family’s finances. Having in place the suitable travel insurance package prior to leaving is well worth the time and effort. Thanks
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I have learned quite a few important things through your post. I might also like to convey that there may be situation that you will obtain a loan and do not need a cosigner such as a Federal Student Aid Loan. But when you are getting a borrowing arrangement through a classic bank then you need to be made ready to have a co-signer ready to help you. The lenders will probably base their own decision on the few aspects but the largest will be your credit score. There are some creditors that will as well look at your job history and come to a decision based on that but in many cases it will be based on on your rating.
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Thanks for your write-up. I also believe that laptop computers have gotten more and more popular currently, and now are sometimes the only kind of computer employed in a household. This is due to the fact that at the same time actually becoming more and more economical, their computing power keeps growing to the point where there’re as highly effective as desktop from just a few years ago.
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I have noticed that in old digital cameras, exceptional sensors help to {focus|concentrate|maintain focus|target|a**** automatically. The sensors with some video cameras change in contrast, while others make use of a beam with infra-red (IR) light, specifically in low light. Higher standards cameras sometimes use a blend of both devices and will often have Face Priority AF where the photographic camera can ‘See’ a face while focusing only on that. Thank you for sharing your thinking on this website.
Thanks for the suggestions you write about through this web site. In addition, many young women who seem to become pregnant tend not to even attempt to get medical health insurance because they dread they couldn’t qualify. Although some states at this point require that insurers offer coverage no matter the pre-existing conditions. Fees on these types of guaranteed options are usually higher, but when thinking about the high cost of health care it may be any safer strategy to use to protect one’s financial potential.
Thanks for expressing your ideas. I would also like to express that video games have been ever evolving. Today’s technology and revolutions have aided create reasonable and fun games. These entertainment games were not as sensible when the real concept was first of all being attempted. Just like other designs of technological know-how, video games also have had to grow by many decades. This itself is testimony towards fast continuing development of video games.
Thanks for your posting on the travel industry. I’d personally also like to add that if you are a senior thinking about traveling, it’s absolutely essential that you buy traveling insurance for older persons. When traveling, seniors are at biggest risk being in need of a healthcare emergency. Having the right insurance plan package for your age group can safeguard your health and provide peace of mind.
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Thanks for the concepts you are giving on this blog. Another thing I’d like to say is the fact that getting hold of copies of your credit rating in order to look at accuracy of any detail is the first action you have to carry out in credit score improvement. You are looking to clean up your credit history from destructive details errors that damage your credit score.
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I believe that avoiding prepared foods is a first step to lose weight. They may taste excellent, but highly processed foods possess very little nutritional value, making you take more to have enough vitality to get through the day. In case you are constantly having these foods, converting to whole grain products and other complex carbohydrates will help you to have more vitality while eating less. Thanks alot : ) for your blog post.
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Good post made here. One thing I would really like to say is that often most professional domains consider the Bachelor Degree as the entry level standard for an online course. Although Associate Qualifications are a great way to begin, completing your own Bachelors opens many opportunities to various professions, there are numerous internet Bachelor Diploma Programs available coming from institutions like The University of Phoenix, Intercontinental University Online and Kaplan. Another issue is that many brick and mortar institutions present Online variations of their degree programs but commonly for a significantly higher price than the companies that specialize in online degree programs.
Thanks for your information on this blog. One thing I would want to say is purchasing consumer electronics items through the Internet is nothing new. In fact, in the past several years alone, the marketplace for online consumer electronics has grown drastically. Today, you will discover practically almost any electronic gizmo and product on the Internet, ranging from cameras in addition to camcorders to computer parts and gaming consoles.
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One important thing is that while you are searching for a education loan you may find that you’ll need a cosigner. There are many scenarios where this is correct because you might discover that you do not have a past credit history so the loan company will require that you’ve someone cosign the borrowed funds for you. Good post.
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These days of austerity and also relative stress and anxiety about taking on debt, many people balk up against the idea of employing a credit card in order to make purchase of merchandise or pay for a vacation, preferring, instead to rely on this tried and trusted method of making settlement – hard cash. However, if you possess the cash available to make the purchase in full, then, paradoxically, that is the best time for them to use the cards for several factors.
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