Finding Flow (E93)

Happiness for Cynics podcast

This week Marie and Pete talk about finding your flow and the wonderful benefits it can give you on your journey to true happiness.

Transcript

[Happy intro music -background] 

M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.  

P: This podcast is about how to live the good life. Whether we’re talking about a new study or the latest news or eastern philosophy, our show is all about discovering what makes people happy.  

M: So, if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.  

P: Plus, sometimes I think we’re kind of funny. 

[Intro music fadeout] 

M: Welcome back.

P: I’m in a recumbent position and I’m not moving.

M: Laugh. Pete’s sitting, his legs crossed and his arm above his head.

P: I’ve been told that I’m not allowed to move because I make too much noise, laugh!

M: He does, our poor production people.

P: Laugh!

M: Person, sorry.

P & M: Laughter.

P: Yeah, we have a team.

M & P: Laughter.

M: Yes, Pete has a habit of scratching furiously –

P: Laugh.

M: – jingling his bracelets, clicking his fingers.

P: Laugh, I just like to express myself every now and then get myself into a mode and I like to let everybody know how I’m feeling.

M: Laugh. And by every now and then, you mean every two minutes.

P & M: Laughter.

P: If you’re wondering what we’re talking about. We’re talking about how to do a radio interview properly and how you have to sit with your hands on the table feet apart.

M: You should plant yourself in a position where – See he’s already just running his hands over his leg. Laugh.

P: I like touching things I can’t help it!

M & P: Laughter!

M: Very tactile, laugh.

P: You want people to be relaxed and be able to respond during an interview. So, for those of us who are more physically inclined.

M: Then we’d probably get you to stand in front of a mic that’s fixed.

P: Ahh…

M: So that you can’t touch things or bang things –

P: That wouldn’t work for me. Laugh.

M: – or just stay put! Well, for those of you who listen to our show, we hope you find the [background noise] …noise that is constant. Laugh. Pete just dropped a pillow.

P: Laugh. I did not!

M: We hope you find it charming, not amateurish.

P: Laugh, it’s something new every week that people can enjoy.

M: Laugh. All right, well, today we are actually exploring our full range of emotions, and it is not such a happy day today because we are sad to say that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has passed away at the age of 87.

P: Mmm hmm.

M: So, he’s a Hungarian-American psychologist, and we started out really early by looking at his work on flow, didn’t we, Pete?

P: Mmm. He was the first person that I remembered because I had to remember his name.

M: Laugh.

P: Had to learn how to say it.

M: We spent a lot of time drilling in Csikszentmihalyi, Csikszentmihalyi, Csikszentmihalyi.

P: Laugh.

M: And for those of you who you think that’s only four syllables, I think there’s like 20 letters, though. [16 letters]

P: Yeah, there was an alphabet.

M: Laugh.

Csikszentmihalyi was Hungarian-American, and he was known for his work in the study of happiness and creativity. He was really a pioneer in the positive psychology space, and in particular he introduced flow theory in the seventies, and he defined flow as a state of mind attained when one becomes fully immersed in an activity.

P: He was a real ground breaker, though I can’t imagine many people in the seventies who weren’t living in communes and going around and burning their bras.

M: Remember, he came from Hungary to the States in 1956.

P: Mmm.

M: So, he would have been living through World War II prior to that.

P: Yeah. It makes his ideas and his brain even more amazing.

M: Absolutely.

P: Chicago’s a pretty, pretty liberal kind of place. It has got some great minds and some really broad thinking people there.

M: Yep.

P: But in the seventies, he was in San Francisco. This person would have gone around going, “I want to talk about flow.” Laugh. Can you imagine what these academics?

M: Laugh.

P: I mean, this is exactly what the podcast is about. It’s about the cynical brain, and I just think someone who is that ground breaking, who could go, “I’m going to explore this and I’m going to pursue it with research.”

M: Mmm hmm.

P: That’s amazing conviction.

M: I think that a lot of people, you know, Viktor Frankl is another great example of someone who, so he wrote Man’s Search for Meaning and he spent a lot of his time researching what makes people happy and he lived through the camps.

P: Yeah, mmm.

M: So, I think Csikszentmihalyi – Pete’s changing chairs.

P & M: Laugh.

M: His knees are cracking.

P & M: Laugh.

M: Now Csikszentmihalyi, I don’t believe it was in the camps, but I do believe he was [affected].

P: Mmm.

M: He lived through World War II and was definitely impacted by it. And I think that led a lot of people to want to study psychology.

P: And the meanings and reasons behind why people behave in a certain way, yes.

M: And what matters in life. Just like over the last 18 months, a lot of people around the world during the pandemic have reassessed their lives and what is and isn’t important.

P: Mmm, yes. Hugely.

M: Yeah, so whereas you and I have planted gardens, Csikszentmihalyi dedicated his life to helping other people understand what brings happiness. He developed this theory of flow and received a lot of awards and an external recognition for that and spent a lot of time in universities teaching others about how to live life.

P: Mmm, yeah again that would have been a ground-breaking area of development.

M: And the field of positive psychology was really new then.

P: Yeah, yeah, certainly in it’s infancy.

M: And he was not only a pioneer in flow, but more broadly positive psychology and really helped the movement gain traction more broadly and with the public.

P: Yeah, yeah. So, for those who may not have heard our previous episode on this. Marie, what is flow?

M: Flow.

P: Yeah.

M: Flow, F – L – O – W, not Flo down the road.

P: Laugh. She makes the best pumpkin scones, I swear.

M: Laugh. Or not ‘flow’s come to town.’

P: Laugh.

M: Which is such an Aussie –

P: Laugh.

M: – saying. I’m not going to explain for our overseas listeners –

P: Laugh!

M: – what that means.

P: Laugh. Australian colloquialisms.

M: Let’s just say it happens once a month for most women.

P: Laugh.

M: So, what it [flow] means is that you’re completely focused on the task at hand, to the point that you forget about yourself and others and about the world around you.

P: Mmm.

M: So, you might lose track of time. But it doesn’t matter because you’re so engrossed in your activity and so happy in the moment.

P: Mmm. We’ve talked about it being a state of presence and a real mindfulness.

M: It’s this weird dichotomy where you’re so in the moment that you’re unaware of what’s happening around you.

P: Yes.

M: So, I’ve got a quote here from Csikszentmihalyi. So, he says,

“Contrary to what we usually believe, the best moments in our lives and not the passive receptive, relaxing times, although such experiences can also be enjoyable if we’ve worked hard to attain them. The best moments usually occur when a person’s body your mind, is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile.”

P: So, it’s those things that you remember when you’re reflecting on something from 10 years ago or when you’re maybe in a stressful situation and you’re recalling that ‘No, I’m sure I can do this, I remember back in 1982 when I did that’, and I was in that moment. Is that kind of what flow does? It makes, it builds a little bit of resilience maybe it builds a little bit of a marker for us to rely on in future times?

M: I guess it does in the sense that if you’re looking at not giving up.

P: Mmm.

M: Or using your passion to dedicate time to building skills or depth of understanding, I guess from that point of view you could use it. But I think more than that, it’s the pleasure it brings in the moment. Just like mindfulness has been proven scientifically to help with happiness levels. It’s about being deeply engrossed in something and flow, similar to meditation, has the same types of impacts on the brain.

P: Mmm.

M: The same types of positive impacts and visualisation during flow can give similar results to when people are meditating. So, really, it’s about creating an environment where you can just follow your passion down a rabbit hole.

P: Laugh, be like Alice!

M & P: Laugh!

P: Follow the White Rabbit.

M: Exactly, follow the white rabbit and come out the other side, and you’ll feel proud and satisfied of what you’ve done that day versus eight hours on the couch Netflixing.

P: Mmm.

M: Which as Csikszentmihalyi says here can also be enjoyable.

P: Right, but in a different way?

M: Exactly. Or, you know, if you’ve worked really hard for a holiday and you just want to lay on the beach for a few days, that can be a good experience, and definitely we need that kind of rest as we’ve discussed before.

P: Yep.

M: But flow is a different type of… I won’t say rest, but it can be equally as satisfying and equally as positive to your mental health.

P: It’s kind of like a way of tapping into that well spring of positivity. For those who are maybe a little bit obsessive compulsive or much more active people, people like yourself who might struggle with meditation. This is another way of accessing those benefits.

M: Yeah.

P: In a very different format. You can be as neurotic as you want about getting the grout out of the bathroom if you really want to if that’s your flow.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: It’s much more in touch with… mindfulness with activity? Is that a fair call?

M: Yeah, I’d say so. And it’s about also achieving things. So many people read Marie Kondo’s book or watched her on Netflix and got to packing their T shirts in those little tepee things in the drawers.

P: Laugh.

M: You know what I’m talking about, laugh. I know you do.

P: Laugh!

M: And you know that was lockdown activity number one. Let’s go through and spring clean and de-clutter everything. And a lot of people really took a lot of satisfaction from spring cleaning their places during lockdown.

P: Yep.

M: So absolutely, you can apply it to many different things.

P: Laughter!

M: For me, it’s writing so I can start writing and look up hours later and the sun has gone down.

P: Yeah. When you’re in that moment, and it’s kind of really special because it doesn’t happen very easily. It doesn’t happen all the time, not every time do you sit down to write does it happen. It’s got to be –

M: Sadly, no.

P & M: Laugh.

P: – the right atmosphere, the sun is going to be in the right position, you know a butterfly has to have flapped its wings in Tokyo.

M: Mmm hmm, laugh.

P: You know. All that sort of stuff, laugh.

M: And there’s a great quote by Margaret Thatcher, and she says,

“Look at a day when you’re supremely satisfied at the end of it. It’s not a day when you lounge around doing nothing. It’s a day when you’ve had everything to do, and you’ve done it.”

P: Mmm.

M: So, it’s like the satisfaction of ticking that last item off your to do list and then closing your laptop down on a Friday afternoon.

P: Yes, laugh.

M: Being like, ‘Yes! it’s the weekend.’

P: Laugh, it’s 5:03.

M: Laugh. Eh… Four o’clock.

P & M: Laugh!

M: Now, I’ll watch some Ted talks, laugh. Hang out here till the boss isn’t watching.

P & M: Laugh.

P: They’ve already been down at the pub for three hours.

M: Laugh! So, really, what we’re talking about. And, we mentioned this, I think it was episode five that we first talked about flow.

P: Yes, it was right at the beginning.

M: Yes, before you were studying and we’re throwing out scientific terms at us, left, right and centre.

P: Laugh.

M: We discussed the default Mode Network, or DMN.

P: Yes.

M: Where all your autopilot/default activities happen.

P: Yeah.

M: And so, to explain that term before we move on. So, as kids, everything is new and we’re constantly learning. And as we get older, things become more of the same, and as a result, our brains don’t need to try as hard.

P: Yes.

M: And they instead operate in the default mode network. So that’s when you’re on autopilot. But when you’re in a state of flow, just like when we’re experiencing awe, we move from the autopilot part of our brains to the learning and inspiration part.

So, it’s about switching from wake up, feed the kids, have a shower, brush your teeth, get out the door, get on your public transport, get to work. It’s about switching off that default mode network and that do this every day and switching on –

P: Yeah, it’s almost passive in a way, isn’t it?

M: Yeah, switching off the passiveness and switching on the engagement, the excitement.

P: OH MY GOD THAT’S A RED PEN ON THE FLOOR! Laugh!

M: Laugh, right? Imagine going back to Disneyland for the first time every day?

P: Ooohhh!!!!!

M: Right? That’s what you’re trying to tap into that wonder and awe.

P: Yeah.

M: Awe is another one as well. You know, for me, the moment that really brings back memories of awe was first seeing Taj Mahal. I imagine if I went back, I wouldn’t have that same feeling.

P: It’s divine, mmm.

M: Yep, it is. It’s about trying to find ways to tap into that again, and you can actually do that. And so maybe we can move forward with ways to bring more flow into your life and deliberately put into practise. Because there are… Oh, God, we’re sounding old now, 50 years of research now, thanks to Csikszentmihalyi on this topic. Since it first came out in the seventies.

P: Yeah, wow.

M: First one, Get rid of the bloody mobile phones.

P: Yes! I’m fully on board for that one. Put it down. Put it in a drawer. And where I first went with this idea is give yourself time.

M: Yep.

P: Give yourself some time to experience flow, set some time in a diary and go ‘this is my flow hour.’ You might not get there but give yourself an hour to explore it.

M: Absolutely. And to do that,

P: Uninterrupted.

M: Yes, it needs to be uninterrupted. So, if you’re sharing a house with someone else, maybe try going to sit in the park.

P: Mmm.

M: Or go to the library.

P: Yep.

M: Those things still exist.

P: Laugh.

M: I know we get all our content online nowadays, but libraries have really evolved quite a bit.

P: I think they’ve done a remarkable job of remaining current and appropriate in the digital age.

M: Mmm hmm. Absolutely. So, go find somewhere quiet and turn off your phone. Put it on silent or leave it another room to stop you checking it because the other thing we do with our phones is if they’re within hands reach in that moment when we’re switching thinking from one idea to the next, we reach for the phone. We go ‘I wonder if anyone’s messaged, I wonder if I’ve gotten an email’ and it’s about not doing that and letting the ideas flow from one to the next, not interrupting that thinking.

P: Mmm and that’s a training thing as well, doing that repeatedly actually makes it an easier state. You don’t get distracted by the technology quite as often.

M: Mmm hmm. Even the technology that’s not on, right?

P: Laugh.

M: Because it’s just in arm’s reach. You turn it back on.

P: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

M: Okay, so number two, we kind of touched on this and they’re all interlinked, is get away from other people.

P: Laugh, have your moment.

M: Mmm hmm. If you’ve got kids, you know, the phone ringing, the TV blaring, you know our busy lives can just feel like one big interruption, and I know at work I have in the past really struggled with finding flow. And as someone who needs to do a lot of writing and thinking, it’s really difficult when you’re constantly being pinged on teams and messenger or whatever your platform is that your company uses to communicate and then you’ve got emails and then you’ve got your phone and it’s exhausting at times to never have that time to do deep work.

P: Mmm.

M: And meetings.

P: Laugh.

M: Oh my goodness, do we love a meeting in corporate world? So, it’s about blocking out time, and I do this now. So, three days a week, not every day but three days a week. I’ll block a two-hour block, and mostly I’m successful at protecting it. And I’ll close down my email and my messenger apps and then just do some work. And I find I come out the other side of that day so much more satisfied with myself.

P: Mmm, yep.

M: Absolutely. Because I’ve actually done some work that day.

P: Because you’ve given yourself the time and eliminated distractions.

M: Yep, and not only that, I do get work done in between meetings and multitasking and all the rest of it. But there’s nothing like the flow that comes from the two hours uninterrupted work.

P: Mmm, the quality. Yeah. And I find that even when I’m working with someone as a client, as a massage therapist, it’s very easy for me to cut out all the distractions. And people tend not to want to interrupt that space.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: Unless they really, really have to. And it is. It’s lovely when I’m in there and I remember going back to when I first started professional work as a massage therapist, really easy for me to do 2.5 hour treatments because there wasn’t a time limit with certain clients and I could indulge and so I could actually –

M: How do I get a massage therapist like you?

P: Laugh! Get them when they’re young.

M & P: Laugh!

P: That’s all I can say, laugh! But it was that love. It was that lovely indulgence. And when you’re in that space, you can do some pretty amazing quality work because it builds one on top of the other. It’s that cumulative effect, if you like, of achievement. And, as you said, unlocking even more fabulousness from yourself.

M: Yeah, absolutely. So, the third thing is, find the right task that you can immerse yourself in. Folding the laundry doesn’t count.

P: Laugh. This comes back to our conversation about passion, I think.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: Knowing what it is that gives you that flow. Or what activity is that you know you can achieve that state in.

M: Yep. So, Csikszentmihalyi says it needs to be sufficiently difficult without being overwhelmingly difficult or unachievable.

P: Yeah, yeah.

M: So, there’s got to be a challenge there to it. This is why study, is a good one.

P: Yep.

M: So, I don’t know… As someone who’s gone back to university whether you’ve experienced flow when studying.

P: Completely, yeah. Especially when I’m engaged with the content. You do, you look up and go, ‘Oh my god, it’s dark. Where’d the day go?’ Laugh.

M: But I will say both of us are quite similar. And where we go to with our flow activity is it is so subjective, though. So, just because we haven’t mentioned it today in this podcast doesn’t mean that… You know maybe riding a horse –

P: Yeah.

M: – is your thing. Trying to think of things that other people might, laugh.

P: Climbing a mountain.

M: Mmm.

P: Like going for a peak, for example? I mean, that’s very challenging, and that can be a flow moment.

M: Yep.

P: It means you’re doing it on your own, laugh!

M: Yeah, definitely. So, there are some ideas that we can give you. Well three in particular. So, if you’re looking for things to bring flow and also some other benefits as well, a lot of it can be found by doing things in a novel or new.

P: Mmm.

M: So, find inspiration by doing something new. So, sign up for a class or activity or course that’s a good one.

P: Yep.

M: Find inspiration by going somewhere new. So go for a mountain climb or get out of town. Even, what I love doing is getting on the hop on, hop off bus.

[Hop on Hop off Bus Tours – providing sightseeing tours on an open-top bus where you can hop on and off to explore it all at your own pace.]

P: Laugh.

M: Love it. And then find inspiration by meeting someone new. Oh, and having a conversation or sparking new ideas with people.

P: Which might lead to new activities, yeah. I like that.

M: Mmm hmm. Or you can try volunteering or joining a book club.

P: Putting yourself in flows way.

M: Yes.

P: Laugh.

M: Absolutely. All right, well, that’s all we have time for today. Again, so sad news today in the positive psychology community.

P: Yes.

M: But –

P: What a legacy to leave.

M: Yeah.

P: Yeah, I just think it’s such a fabulous thing. I was the inventor of flow and positive thinking. Thanks. Goodbye, laugh.

M: Peace out, mic drop.

P: Laugh.

M: Laugh. Alright, well on that note, wishing you a happy week with plenty of flow.

P: Chow

[Happy exit music – background] 

M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more, please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic. 

P: And if you like our little show, we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out. 

M: Until next time. 

M & P: Choose happiness.  

[Exit music fadeout] 

Please note that I get a small commission if you buy something from my site. Your support helps to keep this site going at no additional cost to you. Thanks!