Are You Getting Enough Sleep? (E54)

Happiness for Cynics podcast

This week, Marie and Pete talk about how sleep affects your health and happiness. So, are you getting enough sleep?

Transcript

[Happy intro music -background]

M: Welcome to happiness for cynics and thanks for joining us as we explore all the things I wish I’d known earlier in life but didn’t.

P: This podcast is about how to live the good life. Whether we’re talking about a new study or the latest news or eastern philosophy, our show is all about discovering what makes people happy.

M: So if you’re like me and you want more out of life, listen in and more importantly, buy in because I guarantee if you do, the science of happiness can change your life.

P: Plus, sometimes we’re kind of funny.

[Intro music fadeout]

P: Oh… We’re on? [Silly voice] Are we good to go? He he. Am I on? Hello?

M & P: Laughter.

M: You are on.

P: I shouldn’t be on, we should be sleeping. We need more sleep.

M: We do need more sleep.

P: Apparently we’re not sleeping enough.

M: Actually, I’m really good at sleep.

P: Laugh.

M: Ask anybody.

P: Me too. I don’t sleep [the same as] with everyone’s sleep patterns, but I like my sleep.

M: I love my sleep.

P: Laugh.

M: And I protect it and guard it. Obviously this is the one thing I’m not failing at in my life.

P: Laugh. Exhibit.

M: Absolutely. So why do we need more sleep, Pete?

P: Our sleep is so good for us. There’s so much that sleep does for us. It’s basically influences our physical and mental capacity and every aspect of our life. So if you’re not getting sleep, things don’t happen! Laugh.

M: Absolutely. And we’re increasingly not getting enough sleep.

P: We are, in the 1940’s, eight hours of sleep was the normal arrangement of sleep, and we were pretty good at getting that amount of sleep. That was the average amount that most Americans and Australians were getting. But in the contemporary 21st century, we’re getting less and less.

In 2016, 30% of U.S. citizens were not getting seven hours of sleep. And in Australia, according to a health line survey conducted in March 2019 32% of Australians are also not getting seven hours of sleep. So we’re losing, at least one hour there.

M: And there’s been over the last 10/20 years a whole lot of books by quacks, complete quacks that say you can operate on four hours or five hours a night.

P: No. It’s bullshit.

M: It is.

P: Do not believe it people. Laugh.

M: Just like the dieting fads, these sleep fads are really harmful for you.

P: Yep, they are.

M: And not only that, yet again, you will die!

P: Yeah, laugh. Pretty much and it won’t be pretty. There’s a, there’s a direct link between cardiovascular health and sleep, diabetes, pretension, asthma, flues and colds, cancers, heart attacks.

M: Heart attacks in women in particular and more weight issues, which then leads to diabetes.

P: That’s a pre morbidity indicator.

M: Yeah, absolutely. You get more cravings of sugars and fats because your energy levels drop if you’re not getting enough sleep. So what does your body do when it’s low on energy?

P: Go get more fuel.

M: Exactly, it craves all those bad foods.

M: Yes.

P: The sugars.

M: So if you are obese. One of the first things you should be looking at if you’re hoping to lose weight is your sleep.

P: Mmm. Make sure you get enough sleep.

M: Yep.

P: And that means eight hours, not seven.

M: For adults.

P: Yes.

M: And it is more for teenagers and more for children and even more for babies. And here’s the really scary thing, we’re not even letting our infants get the recommended amount of sleep a lot of the time.

P: Oh really?

M: Yes.

P: Oh, Ok.

M: So you would never, never, if you were told how much sleep your baby should get, want to deprive that child of sleep.

P: Very true.

M: Why do you do it to yourself? This is yet another example of where we’re so much harder on ourselves than we are on other people.

P: Yes.

M: You’d never deny someone else they’re asleep that they say they need.

P: No.

M: Then we do it to ourselves all the time.

P: And another myth about sleeping is, it’s not a bank.

M: Yeah.

P If you miss out on sleep. You can’t make it up by having a big sleep. That doesn’t work that way.

M: No, not at all.

P: So that myth debunked, laugh!

M: It’s a debunking episode today isn’t it?

P: Laugh.

M: The other thing is, it makes you look old. It’s like smoking or getting out in the sun. So, you know, you get the bags under your eyes it’s really bad for your skin.

P: Your cells don’t regenerate as much.

M: Yep.

P: Not getting enough sleep has a huge effect on our cellular damage and our organs. The ability for our organs to regenerate.

Dr. Pam Taub of the UC San Diego School of Medicine talks a lot about this. She’s been doing a lot of work with firefighters and people on shift work and working around why they are so prone to cardiovascular disease and cancer due to the disruption of their circadian rhythms and the interruption of natural sleeping patterns.

M: So moving toward 24/7 world is going to kill us.

P: And that’s one of things that has killed us, and that’s one of the big shifting factors is in the post industrialised era we have more ready access to food, and we are eating much longer during the day. Our ancestors used to eat when the sun was up. We’re now eating well into the evening and we’re eating first thing when we get up, we get up at six, we get a coffee, we grab some breakfast and then we go to the gym and then we’ll go to the work and we’ll have something at 11 o’clock so we’re eating for longer.

We’re not getting that downtime of 10 hours where we’re not putting food in our stomachs. That’s upsetting our circadian rhythms. And that, in turn, upsets our sleep patterns.

M: Mmm.

P: It’s one of the big indicators that I found in some of the reading that I’ve done and the other, the other issue that comes around with that is our access to light.

M: Yes.

P: And the fact that there’s light pollution. Professor Ian Hickey of the University of Sydney is a big critic of light pollution and its links to bipolar and mood disorders.

M: Interesting.

P: And he talks [about] cognitive disorders being much larger amongst the teenage population because of our addiction to devices. Kids are going to their rooms and they have their iPad and they have their phone and they’re staying up until two o’clock in the morning on Facebook, watching YouTube and things like that. That’s having a major issue and damaging effect to our brain retention and mood cognition. And he says that’s a big one for getting rid of the issues that make us not get enough sleep.

M: I have to say it is one of our ongoing marital arguments.

P: Aaahh.

M: That Francis and I have.

P: Laugh! I’m going to go out on a limb here, are you the one on the devices or is Francis?

M: No, no, no. Not devices, light. In the bedroom.

P: Oh, yes. Right.

M: So he wants absolute pitch black or he says he can’t sleep, whereas I want to wake naturally with light rather than in a pitch black room and I can’t tell whether it’s eight AM or two AM and wake to a blaring alarm in a pitch black room.

P: Yes.

M: That to me just gets me up and in the wrong frame of mind and, and often times waking up in the middle of a sleep cycle rather than coming out of a sleep cycle and waking naturally.

P: Yeah.

M: So there’s no, there’s no solution, for the two of us, right?

P: I’m on your bank there Marie, because the fact that sunlight coming in stimulates our body into melanin production and all those, those responses that need to happen it’s a, I’m a big one for waking up with the sunshine.

M: Yes. So I think for the rest of my life that I live with Francis, for better or worse, we will be arguing over how much light is in our room when we go to sleep in the evenings.

P: Laugh. Well, how much does light affect us? You’ve referenced a study in Germany here.

M: Oh, I love this study. I love all studies that I come across!

P: Laugh!

M: There’s something fascinating to me about studies in psychology. Most of them, some of them are just dry as anything and so boring.

P: Yeah, laugh.

M: But so many of them are just super cool.

P: Where do these people come up with these ideas?

M: I know, they’re great!

P: Laugh.

M: And another area that you have to look into if you find this stuff as fascinating as me is behavioural economics because that is some really trippy stuff.

P: Wow, Okay.

M: Where you think that people would do… So It’s stuff like you put a marshmallow in front of a kid and you say, “if you wait five minutes and don’t eat it I’ll give you another one.”

P: Laugh.

M: And then walk away. And a lot of kids will just go ‘meh’ and eat the marshmallow when if they’d only waited five minutes they could have had two.

P: Two!

M: But that’s not how human behaviour works, right?

P: Laugh!

M: That’s the really simple behavioural economics, kind of.

P: In a nut shell.

M: Yep.

P: It’s a marshmallow.

M & P: Laughter.

M: But we do some really whack things, humans, that just go against our self-interest –

P: Laugh!

M: – all the time! Anyway.

P: Like not getting enough sleep, laugh.

M: Yep. Yes, laugh, back to what we were talking about.

P: Laugh. Reverse! Come on, reel it in!

M & P: Laughter!

M: So this study in the late sixties and early seventies in Germany, where they put a bunch of people into a bunker and they had no idea of the time. So, there was no natural light, no radios, no TVs, no clocks, nothing for weeks.

P: For weeks!?

M: For weeks!

P: Oh my god, those poor people.

M: And they watched. I think they just found a bunch of students, to be honest. They were happy to do some quiet study, laugh.

P: And get paid for you it.

M: And get paid, yeah. Which is, you know, pretty much every study is just students.

P & M: Laughter!

P: We know one of those, laugh.

M: Poor students.

P: Laugh, that’s why she can come to dinner every now and then.

M & P: Laughter.

M: So they then watched all of these people and saw how their bodies realigned to some kind of rhythm. And they did.

P: Mmm.

M: They reverted to their natural rhythm, so free from any external indicators of what they should be doing, their bodies went back to a natural rhythm of wakefulness and sleep.

P: Mmm.

M: Now there were, just as a side note, a few crazies out there who went to a 48 hour rhythm with their awake hours.

P: Oh, wow.

M: So this isn’t when we talk about “normal” I’ve got a quotes going for people at home.

P: Laugh.

M: And when we talk about “normal”, there are always exceptions. And there were in this study, some exceptions of people who went to a 48 hour body clock, and that was normal for them.

P: So did that mean that they were sleeping for longer periods and staying awake for longer periods?

M: Yes.

P: But their average amount of sleep across seven days would be the same as someone on a 24 hour cycle?

M: I didn’t look that closely, laugh.

P: Maybe you should see?

M: Ah, look at our show notes, I’ll see if I can find that, laugh. [Please see full study on sleep cycles here.]

P: All the reading of the research that I have done says that that would be the case, even though sleeping is not a bank. Like you can’t have one big, long sleep and make up your sleep. But you do need regular intervals of sleep/ wakefulness to keep those circadian rhythms happening.

M: And to do things like commit things to memory, long term memory.

P: Yes.

M: It’s so critical for making those connections and banking all of your data the end of the day.

P: Yeah.

M: I don’t think that, again I’ll have to look into it, but I highly doubt people are awake for 24 hours and then sleeping for a full 24 hours.

P: Yeah.

M: I’d say they’re probably at 36 of awake and then a good 12 hours sleep or something.

P: That would be interesting.

M: Or they may have been having naps throughout that time.

P: Ah, so does napping work?

M: Well, according to science, it does.

P: Okay.

M: Yep, but anyway, most people in the bunker study, the bunker sleep study, reverted to a 25 hour body clock.

P: Interesting.

M: So we’re an hour out from the day.

P: Mmm.

M: And I find that a little bit interesting. So when we’re out not in bunkers, laugh.

P: Laugh!

M: And have access to daylight to guide our activities. We, we go and follow and force our bodies to follow a 24 hour clock, generally with some small exceptions when we party too much at university and things like that.

P: Laugh.

M: But we force up what is into a 24 hour cycle. And that might actually be, not great for anyone, either.

P: I’m wondering if whether the weather, seasons, make a difference as well?

M: Mmm.

P: We tend sleep more during winter because it is darker.

M: Earlier, yep.

P: Whereas in summer, we’re out and we can’t sleep because it’s hot sometimes and the sun is up a lot longer, so again, that might be the 25 hour rhythm.

M: Well, remember when we were in Sweden?

P: Yeah, that was weird way absolutely.

M: And we came out of the restaurant and it was 11 o’clock at night and it was still light.

P & M: Laugh.

M: Yeah, and that really messed with us for a while. We were all so jet lagged, I would say.

P: Laugh. Well, it’s interesting you touched on the types of sleep because Dr Laura Jacobson, who’s the head of the Sleep and Cognition Laboratory of the Florey Institute of Neuroscience and Mental Health, that’s a mouthful, –

M: Laugh.

P: – in Melbourne in Australia, she says that getting quality of sleep is important. Everyone talks about REM sleep and that REM sleep is so important for what we need.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: It is important for our invention and our problem-solving capability. I think it was Isaac Newton who said that his theories came to him in a dream. Composers talk about it all the time, ‘oh the melody came to me in a vision when I was asleep.’ And that’s because REM sleep accesses those inventive areas of our brain.

M: It makes, it allows you to make the connections between the different parts of your brain, and that is where you get true creativity. So, it’s when the math part of your brain talks to the psychology part of your brain, and you’d never put those two together. And that’s why some of the greatest inventions were from people who had broad education and understood a little bit about everything.

P: Yeah, ‘cause they could link things together.

M: They could make those links, and they guaranteed, would not have made those links without the freedom, free of devices and free of people to let their minds wander and make connections, but also without some really good sleep.

P: Yep, who was the apple on the head dude?

M: Newton.

P: Newton, him, Yeah!

M: Laugh.

P: Sitting under a tree, apple hits him on the head. ‘Ah, I’ve come up with the theory of…

M: Relativity.

P: I was thinking that.

M: No, gravity.

P: Right, relativity was Einstein. Oh, we’re going all over the place here, I need more sleep! Laugh!

M: Gravity.

P & M: Laugh!

P: But, getting back to Dr Jacobson, she also talks about the importance of non-REM sleep and that we equally need that because that’s good for our learning and our memory retention and organising our memories into long term memory and short term memory. So, which would explain why, if you’re not getting quality sleep, it’s constantly being broken, and you’re not getting that natural swing between REM and non-REM sleep. You’re befuddled the next day, you can’t recall things, you can’t remember what the article said that you were reading 5 minutes ago.

M: What the thing was?

P: The theory of relativity versus gravity?

M & P: Laugh!

M: You know that thing, dooby whacker.

P: Laugh. So students who are pulling all-nighters before exams. You’re doing yourself a disservice?

M: Well, it is important, you know, to say that you can sustain it for short amounts of time. So if you are pulling an all-nighter before an exam – Oh, sorry. If you’re pulling an all-nighter to get a paper in.

P: Mmm hmm.

M: Then you can do that and not see the decline straight away. But the next day, after you’ve handed your paper in, you know, you’re going to feel it, right?

P: Yeah, you will feel it.

M: You’ll feel it.

P: This is what I’m finding with a lot of the research they’re saying, don’t fool yourself if you’re denying yourself sleep, it will hit you.

M: Absolutely.

P: There’s a there’s a compensation that has to happen. Same as if you’re going to not eat for 24 hours, you can’t go and exercise when you’re not eating.

M: Yep.

P: But you can, not eat for 24 hours and you won’t die. It’s actually good for you.

M: Ooohhh! In some situations.

P: Well, that another episode right there. We’re going to get side-tracked in a minute.

M: Uh, huh. You’ve got to be –

P: Laugh, I’m pro-fasting.

M: – really, you’ve got to be really careful. Fasting is not for everyone.

P: Yep, another episode.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: Laugh.

M: So, back to napping though,

P: Yes.

M: There are definitely revitalising effects that come with napping.

P: Ok. ‘Cause I’m not a napper.

M: And – no me neither, I get really groggy.

P: I find it really frustrating.

M: Oh I can, I can, I just want a nap for three to four or five hours, laugh.

P: Which they say isn’t good for you.

M: Which means I can’t sleep at night.

P: Yeah.

M: So the ideal amount of time is about 90 minutes.

P: Oh, really?

M: But as short as 20.

P: Oh, Okay.

M: And here’s why a lot of people don’t do it because they can wake up in the middle of a sleep cycle and feel groggy and therefore not feel like they got any benefit from it there feeling worse than when they had when they went for the nap.

P: Right.

M: So the trick here is splashing water on your face and take a few steps to get your heart rate up again.

P: Ok.

M: And your brain will actually have had the benefits from that nap.

P: Oh.

M: So, it is worthwhile if you can get a nap in because you feel you need it.

P: Yep the power nap idea.

M: Always worthwhile to do it, even if you do wake yourself up in the middle of a sleep cycle, you’ve still let your brain have some downtime to recover, to put all those things into long term memory, etcetera, etcetera.

P: Yes, mmm.

M: So 20 to 90 minutes. And also, if you can’t do it during the day, which there’s no way I could fit a nap into my corporate life.

P: Laugh!

M: It’s just not happening.

P: Yep.

M: If you can’t do that, then a nap on the weekend is better than no nap. So if you only do a nap on Sundays.

P: A lot of people do that.

M: Yep. Do it.

P: Understood?

M: Absolutely.

P: So before we wrap up, how do we get better sleep if we’re not getting enough sleep?

M: There’s so many things that go into this.

P: Mmm. There are.

M: And, so many different things you should talk to your doctor about. And I’m gonna bring it back to me again.

P: Laugh.

M: Because it’s all about me, laugh. I suffered with bad sleep for a number of years because of my diet.

P: Ah, yes.

M: And it wasn’t because I was eating late. It was purely because I’ve had food allergies and intolerances for so many years, and it impacts my ability to sleep and stay asleep.

P: Understandable.

M: And everyone would tell me ‘you need more sleep’. And I was getting plenty of sleep. It wasn’t light, it wasn’t devices, it wasn’t all the usual things. So absolutely talk to your doctor of you having troubles with sleep because there are so many different things that can impact your sleep. But I think you’ve got three here, Pete, that we might end on that are the usual culprits, right?

P: Yes. So eating late, we’ve talked about it.

Don’t eat late.

Try to give yourself 10 hours without food, so don’t eat [late], especially don’t do what I do, which is a big meal before going to bed, it just keeps you up.

M: Mmm hmm.

P: I’m really bad at it because I finish work late. So don’t eat late.

Put down the devices, no light pollution.

Now that can also come down to keeping lights on in the bedroom, reading just before you go to bed. Which again I’m guilty of, having lots of light around you upsets your circadian rhythms and won’t allow you to rest.

M: Or having poor curtains or outside light.

P: Yep.

M: We have an apartment once that had a big spotlight.

P: Urrgghh.

M: And it used just come in out bedroom window.

P: That’s rough.

M: Most annoying thing in the world.

P: Yep, you want to get a BB-gun and take that thing out.

M & P: Laughter!

P: Last one.

Establish a routine that naturally brings you down.

P: So for me, one of the best things that I can do is to turn all my lights to really low and do some yoga. 20 minutes of yoga, not the big arches and the standing series, nice gentle on the floor, a couple of stretches with some soft music, if you need it, or no music at all. Decrease all the sensitivity of the sympathetic nervous system and naturally you’ll drift off to sleep really well.

M: I personally try to read for 10 minutes every night before bed, at least.

P: Which is fine because you’re resting and it’s fine to do that as long as you.

M: So no device and no white light

P: Yeah, no white light.

M: Definitely, come in here, turn the main lights off. Put the reading light on. Get into bed. 10 minutes often becomes 30 minutes or an hour but I’ll read and it’s –

P: – It’s your way to come down. It’s a good way to do it.

M: Yep.

P: Then you’re not like my mother with the woman’s weekly on your chest at 4am in the morning with glasses on.

M: Laugh!

P: Such a funny sight. You walk past and you’re like ‘Yeah, that’s good.’

And on that happy image, get more sleep people, it’s important!

M: Good night.

[Happy exit music – background]

M: Thanks for joining us today if you want to hear more please remember to subscribe and like this podcast and remember you can find us at www.marieskelton.com, where you can also send in questions or propose a topic.

P: And if you like our little show we would absolutely love for you to leave a comment or rating to help us out.

M: Until next time.

M & P: Choose happiness.

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